HC Deb 10 October 1946 vol 427 cc358-60
57. Mr. W. J. Brown

asked the Minister of Labour if he can state the Government's policy in relation to the closed shop issue.

Mr. Isaacs

The hon. Member does not explain what he means by the "closed" shop issue." If he would care to state his meaning more precisely, I will be happy to answer any further Question he may care to put down.

Mr. Brown

Might I ask, does not the right hon. Gentleman read the "Evening Standard"?

Mr. Isaacs

Yes, Sir. I not only read the "Evening Standard," but I read other literature that has been published from time to time by the hon. Member. I would remind him that I know of a closed shop which is closed because the employer will not permit the employment of trade unionists.

Mr. Churchill

What is the Government definition of the "closed shop issue"?

Mr. Isaacs

I would like to give the same reply to the right hon. Gentleman. If he will tell me what is meant by the "closed shop" I will answer him.

Mr. Churchill

The right hon. Gentleman is responsible for dealing with these matters. Has he not formulated in his mind any idea what the closed shop issue is, and if he has, why should not he tell the House?

Mr. Isaacs

I would be quite willing to tell the House if hon. Members would tell me what they mean by the "closed shop." I know what the "closed shop" means in America. It is an American term which has been imported into use in this country for the purpose of causing trouble to the Government.

Mr. Frank Byers

Might I ask the Minister if there has been a Cabinet decision to evade this issue?

Mr. Isaacs

If I understood the hon. Member to say that the Cabinet had reached a decision to evade the issue, I would point out that the matter has not been discussed by the Cabinet. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] When the Cabinet consider it necessary to discuss it they will discuss it, and when they do discuss it and come to a decision they will not evade the issue.

Mr. Churchill

Is it not a fact that 20 or 30 men have been dismissed by an employer on the orders of a great trade union because they did not belong to the great trade union? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I am asking, is it not a fact that that is so? Have the Government not even taken the trouble to consider the implications of a step like that? Have they no opinion to give the House except the farrago of confusion, evasion, tricky words and formulas in which the right hon. Gentleman is indulging?

Mr. Paton

On a point of Order. Is it in Order for an hon. Member of this House repeatedly to ask a Minister to define a term which he says is so ambiguous that he cannot himself define it?

Mr. Speaker

I think that is quite in Order. What I would suggest is that, while we are having a lot of fun, we are not making very much progress.

Mr. Churchill

rose—

Mr. Speaker

I indicated that I had decided we would leave this subject.

Mr. Churchill

I rose, Sir, with very great respect, on the point of Order, to assure you that my intervention in this matter was not designed to cause fun.

Mr. W. J. Brown

On a point of Order. I give notice that in view of the national importance of this subject I will raise it on the Adjournment.

Mr. Hector Hughes

On a point of Order. May I ask for your Ruling, Mr. Speaker? Is not the burden on the hon. Member who puts down a Question in this House to put it in unambiguous language?

Mr. Speaker

That is not a point of Order. It is a purely hypothetical question.