HC Deb 30 July 1946 vol 426 cc916-8

Lords Amendment: In page 59, line 32, at end, insert: (5) The amendments made by this Section and Part IV of the said Eleventh Schedule in Section six of, and the Schedule to, the National Service (Armed Forces) Act, 1939, shall not affect any proceedings begun, regulations made or thing done under or for the purposes of the said Section six before the appointed day, but the National Service Acts, 1939 to 1946, with the amendments so made, shall apply in relation thereto as if begun, made or done by, to or before, or with reference to, the umpire or any deputy umpire appointed for the purposes of the Reinstatement in Civil Employment Act, 1944, or the chairman of a local tribunal or the panels appointed or constituted for the purposes of Section forty-three of this Act, as the case may be.

10.25 p.m.

Mr. Lindgren

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

At the moment, the military hardship tribunals use the machinery of the Ministry of Labour appeal tribunals and their umpires. By this Act the 1935 Unemployment Insurance Act goes out of existence. This Clause provides that the machinery of the National Insurance Bill shall be used for the purpose of hearings and that appeals shall be tied with the appeals under the Reinstatement (Civil Employment) Act, 1944.

Mr. Molson (The High Peak)

It is really an extremely difficult Amendment to understand, as I am sure the Minister will agree. I confess that I have been trying to look it up in the Library, and I do not fully understand it. I wish the Minister could explain exactly how it is to operate. I understand the point the Parliamentary Secretary has made, which is that the procedure that can be applied comes under the Unemployment Insurance Act, but I am not clear exactly in what circumstances and to what individual cases this will apply.

Mr. Lindgren

I will not try to explain the wording as put forward in the Amendment. All I can explain is what the procedure is now, what is the intention, and what will be the new practice, and I am assured that this wording covers the requirements. At present, the Military Service (Hardship) Committees are linked with the Courts of Referees under the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1935, and similarly appeals from the committees go to the umpire or deputy umpires appointed under that Act. The National Insurance Bill supersedes the Unemployment Insurance Act of 1935, but the military hardship tribunals will still have to be in existence because there will still be persons to be recruited to His Majesty's Forces and there must be a form of machinery through which the necessary appeals can be heard. This means that the National Insurance tribunals in the localities will be used for hearing appeals, but that appeals from those tribunals, instead of being to the normal umpire in so far as the National Insurance machinery is concerned, will go to the umpires now dealing with the Reinstatement in Civil Employment Act, 1944.

Mr. Molson

The umpire under this Bill as opposed to the umpire under the Insurance Act of 1935?

Mr. Lindgren

No. I am sorry if I did not make it clear. At the moment the man appeals to the umpire under the Unemployment Insurance Act of 1935. This will be superseded in that the first appeal will be to the local tribunal under the National Insurance Bill.

Mr. Molson

Under this Bill?

Mr. Lindgren

Under this Bill. At the moment there is, too, an appeals machinery under the Reinstatement in Civil Employment Act, 1944, and the further appeal will be to the umpires under that Act.

Mr. Rhys Davies (Westhoughton)

The words "National Service Acts" are included. I take it for granted that no appeals for unemployment health insurance will go to any tribunal in connection with national service?

Mr. Lindgren

No, we are dealing with appeals from the hardship committees which are entirely outside the National Insurance Bill. The machinery for these appeals was originally tied up with the Unemployment Insurance Act because the Act provided convenient local tribunals experienced in hearing appeals which could be used under the National Service Acts for people who had a case in the locality, so that it could be heard in their locality, by people who had a knowledge of the local facts and the local conditions.