DETAINED MEMBER (RELEASE)

HC Deb 26 September 1944 vol 403 cc41-8

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Herbert Morrison)

I am taking this—the earliest—opportunity of informing the House of my decision to release from detention of the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay), and of the reasons for that decision. By letter dated 23rd May, 1940, Mr. Speaker was informed by my predecessor in office that he had found it his duty, in the exercise of his powers under Defence Regulation 1813, to direct that the hon. and gallant Member be detained and that he had accordingly been taken into custody that morning and lodged in Brixton Prison. The essential features of this Regulation, which confers on the Executive drastic and arbitrary powers of arrest and detention without trial, are, first, that its purpose is to protect the State and not to punish individuals, secondly, that the exercise of the powers can be justified only where there is reasonable cause to believe that the safety of the State may be in danger, and, thirdly, that detention should not be continued any longer than is necessary for that purpose. It follows that it is the duty of the Home Secretary to keep under continuing examination the cases of persons whose detention has been ordered in pursuance of this Regulation and to decide from time to time in the light of the circumstances and of the considerations affecting national security whether it is necessary to continue detention. The hon. and gallant Member was detained on the ground that there was reasonable cause to believe him to be a person who had been recently concerned in acts prejudicial to the public safety or the defence of the Realm or in the preparation or instigation of such acts and that, by reason thereof, it was necessary to exercise control over him.

Hitherto, I have not felt that I should be justified in ordering his release but the success of the arms of the United Nations, and the certainty that the forces of evil arrayed against us are doomed to complete overthrow, have created a situation in which I, as the Minister responsible for internal security, would be justified in taking risks which would not have been justifiable but for the improvement in our national fortunes.

Mr. Gallacher

It is the most shameful thing I have ever heard of.

Mr. Morrison

After weighing all the considerations which are relevant in the case of persons who have not been convicted of any criminal offence, I have come to the conclusion that the time has come when it would be legitimate to face any risk there may be that the hon. and gallant Member may be tempted again to engage in irresponsible and mischievous activities, and I am accordingly giving instructions for his release as soon as the necessary arrangements. can be made. I have considered whether the hon. and gallant Member should be subjected, as has been done in the case of other persons released from detention, to conditions imposing on him a measure of supervision. But a Member of Parliament must, if he is to perform his functions, be free to attend Parliament, to move about the country, and to engage in all the activities of a Member. The imposition of any restrictive conditions would be incompatible with the exercise of the rights of a Member of Parliament and in this case, therefore, I have ordered that the release shall be unconditional. It would be appropriate on this occasion for me to make some further statement about my intention with regard to other persons detained under the Regulation. I do not propose to release en bloc all those who are at present detained on the ground of hostile origin or associations or of having been concerned in acts prejudicial to the safety of the Realm. The time has not come when that could safely be done. But a fresh review of these cases has recently been undertaken and of the 223 persons detained on 31st July release has been authorised in 70 cases. As regards persons detained on the ground of membership of the British Union, all have been released now with the exception of 14. The cases of those remaining in detention are undergoing a further review and to the extent that I am satisfied that no undue risk would be involved to security or the war effort in releasing the persons whose release has not yet been effected, release will be authorised subject to whatever conditions are deemed to be necessary.

Mr. Gallacher

I want to ask the Minister if he is aware that this man is a rabid anti-Semitic—

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member must remember that this is another Member of Parliament.

Mr. Gallacher

I want to ask the Minister whether he is aware that the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay) is a rabid anti-Semitic—

Mr. Speaker

For Members to make such suggestions against one another is not in Order.

Mr. Gallacher

Surely I am entitled to draw attention to the fact that anti-Semitism is an incitement to murder. That has been proved in every country.

Hon. Members

Order.

Mr. Gallacher

I want to ask the Home Secretary this: If the mothers of this country, whose lads are being sacrificed now, are to be informed by him that their sacrifices have enabled him to release this unspeakable blackguard—

Hon. Members

Order. Withdraw.

Mr. Gallacher

No, I will not withdraw.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member must not flout my Ruling in that way. He will please withdraw those last few words.

Mr. Gallacher

No, I will not withdraw.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member must withdraw if I order him to do so.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to Standing Order No. 19, relating to disorderly conduct, ordered MR. GALLACHER to withdraw immediately from the House during the remainder of this day's Sitting; and he withdrew accordingly.

Mr. Shinwell

On a point of Order. I recognise the difficult position in which you find yourself, Mr Speaker; hon. Members also find themselves in some difficulty. The right hon. Gentleman, the Home Secretary, has just announced that the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay) has been incarcerated—and presumably he was incarcerated for some crime. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]Well, he was not incarcerated because of his innocence. In the opinion of my right hon. Friend his activities were prejudicial to the State and surely, in those circumstances, it is not altogether invidious for the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) to use language which indicates that in his judgment the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern is acting in a manner prejudicial to society. I am bound to say, with great respect, that it appears to me that the treatment to which the hon. Member for West Fife has been subjected was somewhat harsh.

Hon. Members

Order.

Mr. Shinwell

I will express my opinion, whether I am right or not.

Mr. Speaker

If once we start calling each other names there will be no end to it.

Mr. Pritt

On a point of Order. This is a matter which is difficult for the House, and I would ask you, Mr. Speaker, to reconsider your Ruling. If it was right and proper for the Home Secretary's predecessor, many months ago, to tell the House, on his own responsibility, that the conduct of the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay) was such that he ought not even to be at liberty in this-country, although he remained a Member of this House, and if then, with some caution of language the right hon. Gentleman now says that the hon. and gallant Member, in his opinion—and his opinion governs the matter—can safely be let out, is it to be held that no Member of this House, by way of questioning the wisdom of that decision, is to call this gentleman what a great many people think he is? This House has entrusted to the Home Secretary powers which some think are very bad—the right of saying who shall be in under 18B and who shall not—and does this not make it impossible for hon. Members effectively to question and challenge in this House—where the Home Secretary says it ought to be challenged—the exercise of that right?

Mr. Speaker

If the matter were being discussed by the hon. and learned Member himself there would be probably no case in which I would disagree, but the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) did use un-Parliamentary language. That is what we ought not to allow.

Mr. Pritt

May I ask the Home Secretary whether he would, if necessary after consultation with the Service Ministers, tell us how many decent Englishmen have been unnecessarily brought to their deaths through the activities of the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles and Southern (Captain Ramsay)?

Mr. Morrison

I do not know, but may I add this for the benefit of the hon, and learned Member and other persons who are politically associated with him? He might perhaps have remembered all that in 1940.

Mr. Pritt

I have never forgotten it.

Mr. Tinker

By way of appeal to you, Mr. Speaker, may I ask whether you can exercise your tolerance and decide not to banish from the House the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher)? After all, he was carried away by his feelings and. this House is very tolerant. We know very well he does not altogether mean what he said. I do ask you to try, if you can, not to exercise your powers in the way you have done.

Mr. Driberg

Further to that point, may I put to you, with respect—a fact that may not be generally known to hon. Members—that the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) lost his son, who was killed in action a few weeks ago and that that may perhaps, to some extent, excuse his use of un-Parliamentary language. May I also ask the Home Secretary whether we are to take it that the wording of his statement does mean that he regards the release of the hon. and gallant Member as taking a risk?

Mr. Morrison

I have indicated that all releases involve an element of risk, which it is for me to adjudge. I think the risk is one that in present circumstances can be taken. If things work out wrongly, there are remedies available to me, but I think it is a risk which in present circumstances can be properly taken.

Sir Hugh O'Neill

With regard to the language which the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) has used, namely, that he has called another Member of this House "an unspeakable blackguard," would it not render procedure in this House absolutely nugatory and impossible, if language of that sort were allowed without the hon. Member concerned withdrawing it?

Mr. Mack

Would my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary state, in view of his previous statement that he cannot restrict the liberties of the hon. and gallant Member for Peebles (Captain Ramsay) in his capacity as a Member of Parliament, what is to be the position if the hon. Member in question engages in the type of speech and propaganda associated with him in this House and thus causes great dissension in the country? Will the right hon. Gentleman, in those circumstances, take the necessary action?

Mr. Morrison

The conduct of a Member in this House is not a question for the Home Secretary. It is entirely a matter for you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Stokes

Can the Home Secretary say whether there are still detained under 18B persons whose release has been recommended by the Advisory Committee, and if so how many?

Mr. Morrison

I give monthly reports about that which are available to the hon. Member.

Mr. Stokes

But at the present moment? In view of the right hon. Gentleman's recent statement, does that, in fact, release all the people whose release has been recommended?

Mr. Morrison

That issue has been argued out repeatedly.

Mr. Stokes

What are the facts now?

Mr. Morrison

I do not propose to tell my hon. Friend. The responsibility is on me, and there it will remain. It always has been with me and must be to the end.

Mr. Stokes

There is no necessity for the Home Secretary to get irritable about this. I have asked a simple question about those now detained whose release has been recommended, and he can surely give a civil answer to a civil question.

Miss Rathbone

With regard to that part of the Home Secretary's statement which referred to his intended review of the cases of people of alien origin, whether enemy or allied, will he undertake that before he comes to an unfavourable decision he will give an opportunity to the few hundreds of people who are still detained at least to state their own case, since many have been detained for four or five years and never told the case against them, and nobody in close touch with them knows it either?

Mr. Morrison

I do not know whether there is any misunderstanding, but these cases are, of course, cases of British subjects, though many of them are of hostile origin or association. The procedure, in my judgment, has been very fair and very proper.

Miss Rathbone

Will the right hon. Gentleman not give similar reconsideration to the cases of those who are not British subjects?

Mr. Morrison

They are always being reconsidered and fairness is extended to them, in my judgment. In my judgment these difficult powers have been fairly administered by the Home Office from the beginning.

Mr. Graham White

In view of the fact that there are still a number of persons of foreign origin who have been incarcer- ated for years, not on grounds of security but because they have committed some small offences against the law, will the right hon. Gentleman, in view of this new arrangement and of what he has said, reconsider their cases as well?

Mr. Morrison

They are steadily reviewed and quite a number have been released, but I venture to think that if foreigners come to this country, particularly as refugees, they should observe the principles of public order.

Mr. McEntee

In view of the speeches which have been made by the hon. and gallant Member whom he proposes to release, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will put some restriction upon him, or at least warn him in some way that language of a similar kind, which is inciting the people practically to murder, will be seriously viewed, and that he will not be permitted to make such speeches in the future?

Mr. Morrison

I must be careful about exercising any powers of saying "You shall not make particular speeches," and particularly is that so in the case of a Member of Parliament. In the view of many, in the case of a Member of Parliament either he is detained or is not detained, and if he is not detained I think it would be wrong for me to impose conditions.

Mr. McEntee

If there is a continuance of this kind of speech by the hon. and gallant Member can he again be detained?

Mr. Leach

Will the right hon. Gentleman take note that his courageous interpretation of and his rightful exercise of his powers under 18B satisfies many Members of this House?

Mr. Speaker

I have had one or two appeals put to me. I am the last person ever to be vindictive, and I also realise that the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) has lost a son, but, after all, the authority of the House must be maintained, and I must adhere to my Ruling that he must withdraw for this day.