DISCHARGED SERVICE PERSONNEL (CIVILIAN CLOTHING) (Hansard, 19 October 1944)

§ Mr. Evelyn Walkden (Doncaster)
The issue that I have to raise is probably, to some minds, only a slight difference of opinion by comparison with the differences expressed this afternoon, but I venture to suggest, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that it is second only to the general demobilisation plans of the Government which were announced a few days ago. It arises from a Question which I addressed to the Minister of Supply about the scheme to provide civilian clothing for the men discharged from His Majesty's Forces. On 14th March last, hon. Members were invited by the Secretary of State for War to visit Olympia for a preview of the scheme for clothing demobilised soldiers which was put into operation on Monday of this week. Great credit is due to the Minister of Supply and the Secretary of State for War for skill and organisation put into the first of the big efforts we are making to see that a square deal is given to the citizens who have fought so gallantly in Britain's war. I believe it is the intention of the Government to see that justice is done to these members of the fighting 2671 Forces who are returning to what the Army calls "civvy street."
I was privileged yesterday to see this scheme in operation and a few of the 50 or more men who passed through the depot. They were well satisfied with the clothing, or what they call the "rig-out," handed to them, and despite the misgivings which are being expressed in some quarters concerning the pledges given by the War Office and the Ministry of Supply, I recommend a visit to this depot so that hon. Members may see for themselves the fine quality of the clothing being provided. If they examine the civilian rig-out, they will see that the pledges given by the respective Ministries have been honoured to the last collar stud or button.
So from that angle I have no complaint. The old workhouse suit, or monstrosity suit, has gone completely, and the austerity suit has also gone. There are no austerity suits at Olympia and the quality is as good as one could expect. In fact, I would say that in no shape or form can the suits be confused with austerity. The same applies to the raincoats. My own raincoat by no means compares with those being issued at Olympia. If a few of the Ministers had been here, and particularly those in the War Cabinet, I was going to say that if the most immaculately dressed Cabinet Minister is ever looking for a new tailor, I would recommend him to the Army Outfit Depot at Olympia.

§ The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. Peat)
I have one of the suits on now.

§ Mr. Walkden
I am glad to hear that. I am looking round for the chance of a new suit myself. Rightly or wrongly, the hon. Members who went to Olympia on 14th or 15th March last believed that what was good for the Army would be good for the Navy and the Air Force. We had reason to believe that because we saw senior officers of the Air Force and the Admiralty there taking a deep interest. However, I regret to find that such is not the case. The Government announced only last week that vouchers are to be given to discharged sailors exchangeable for what they call a similar range of clothing. That was the statement issued to the Press; we have had no other statement than a reply to a Question by the Financial Secretary two days ago. At first that seemed quite a fair proposition, 2672 and it appeared that the scheme for the Navy was going to give what men of the lower deck might call a fair deal. I have my doubts about it. The scheme, as I understand it, is very different from that of the Army. The value for the sailor, as compared with the soldier, I will give in a few moments, but the simple fact is that the discharged soldier will receive super clothing, while the sailor will receive only utility clothing. I do not want to discredit the efforts of the Board of Trade in trying to lay down standards for utility suits but, generally speaking, such suits are of doubtful and unproven quality. They differ from shop to shop and factory to factory. There are few inspectors who can give any undertaking as to what are the standards for utility clothing, other than those laid down in the regulations.
The soldier has available to him, at Olympia, 400 patterns, or styles, with maybe 11 sizes and three sub-divisions to every size. The sailor is given a voucher. It may be said that that gives him freedom to go to any shop in the country, but nowhere has he all the styles and patterns which are available to soldiers at Olympia. In fact, the sailor has to compete with the civilian population and, unfortunately, there are not many utility suits in the shops even if they wish to purchase them, and the range is so limited that it is often a case of "Hobson's choice." But that is not the whole story. The allowances which have been authorised have been adjusted. For the old £219s. 4d., which was allowed up to a few days ago, a voucher has been substituted. No one seems to know, except the Treasury, what is the value of this voucher. The Admiralty do not seem to know, and I doubt whether any of the Ministers present here to-night can say what the value is. I suggest, therefore, that it is related to utility clothing, and if that is so I can only make a guess according to the Board of Trade schedules for utility garments. That voucher, I believe, is worth £7 3s. 0½d., instead of £2 19s. 4d., and is a wholesale figure. I would like to ask whether the retailer will get £7 3s. 0½d., or will be paid the retail price under the Board of Trade Order. If he is, there is a great difference. It means that under the retail price as compared with the wholesale price the retailer will receive £10 1s. 7d., so that there is a margin of profit for 2673 him of £2 18s. 6½d. merely for passing goods over the counter.
Is the sailor to get a square deal as well as the soldier? I am glad to see the First Lord of the Admiralty has just come into the House, because this affects the Department very seriously. It is no use saying that soldiers and sailors are being treated alike. I welcome the presence here of the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Air, because we have never yet had a statement from the Air Ministry on this matter. Why have they not marched in step with the Army? Why could not there have been a combined operation? I know that the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Secretary of State for Air might say that their problem is very different from the Army's problem, but I believe that the Air Ministry have a scheme which is similar and which is likely to be announced in a few days. When is that scheme coming into operation? A soldier discharged on medical grounds receives the kind of clothing, I have described, but is the airman receiving the same treatment? If not, why not? I have tried to put this matter as simply as I can and I hope I shall receive from the Minister who is to reply a simple answer.

§ Mr. Reakes (Wallasey)
I want strongly to support what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster (Mr. E. Walkden), and at the same time to join with him in expressing regret that there should be this differentiation between the sailor and the soldier. In my opinion it will take a lot of explaining away. I would like to ask what is to be the fate of women in the Forces in this matter of reclothing after discharge. They must not be overlooked. Women in the Forces have never looked better than they do to-day—a "Wren" is a joy to gaze upon—and I think that that applies equally to members of the A.T.S. and the W.A.A.F., who have become accustomed to being well dressed, whatever their station in life before they joined the Forces. I do not think they will relish being treated differently from other sections of His Majesty's Forces. They have benefited physically as the result of their training and have developed physiques beyond all imagination and it will not be an easy matter to reclothe these women after the war.

§ The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. Peat)
I have very little to say, and I do not want to take up the time of the House unduly, but I would like to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster (Mr. E. Walkden) for the remarks he made about the Ministry of Supply. We are, of course, a Supply Department and we are not responsible for distribution, although we co-operate to the best of our ability. As I told my hon. Friend just now, I am at this moment wearing one of the suits which is available to soldiers at Olympia. I got it straight off a peg, and it has not been altered in any way.

§ Mr. E. Walkden
How did my hon. Friend get it? I want a new suit myself.

§ Mr. Peat
Unfortunately, it is only on loan.

§ Lieut.Commander Gurney Braithwaite (Holderness)
For the purpose of this Debate?

§ Mr. Peat
Yes.

§ Mr. E. Walkden
Show business.

§ Mr. Peat
Since Monday we have issued 150 suits of the kind I am wearing through the dispersal depot at Olympia, and only three have had to go back for alteration. The word "utility"—these suits are made of utility cloth—is perhaps badly chosen. It is a very first-class standard cloth which has been made with the advice of the Board of Trade and the Wool Control to produce garments which would stand the closest inspection. It is not an inferior cloth. It is as good as you could possibly get in the circumstances of to-day. I should also like to make it perfectly plain that austerity suits, which were issued up to March last, have not been issued since and, as far as we are concerned, have all been withdrawn, so there is no question of the men getting austerity suits in future.

§ The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Air (Captain Harold Balfour)
The hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. E. Walkden) asked when the Air Ministry scheme was to be put into operation. It was in operation three days ago, and since then all men discharged from the Royal Air 2675 Force are entitled to claim an issue of clothing under the full demobilisation scheme, which gives clothes of the same value and quality as those which are being supplied to the Army. Our scheme envisages three centres where the men will go to be issued with these clothes. They will be measured and tried, and the suits will be made suitable. We had to-day, not a demonstration but what was actually an exercise, to which we gave no publicity—we did not ask visitors—to see how our system was working. I understand that the average time for a man to go through the centre was 39 minutes. We are operating two of these centres now and, when we require to do so, we shall operate all three. On 12th instant, a letter was sent from the Air Ministry to all our commands giving particulars of the issue of clothing and the general scheme that was to govern that issue. Within a week an Air Ministry Order will be going out to all commands with instructions that the particulars should be brought to the attention of all ranks.

§ Mr. E. Walkden
Then the scheme is not fully in operation?

§ Captain Balfour
Yes, it is in full operation but we want to ensure that men who are still serving shall have particulars of the scheme, which will affect them in due course, and for that reason we are bringing it to the attention of all ranks: The hon. Member for Wallasey (Mr. Reakes) asked about the women's Services. I am informed that women are more difficult to fit exactly than men, and that there is a common scheme for all three Services which, again, has been operating since last Monday, whereby women discharged from the Service will receive £12 10s. in cash to enable them to buy clothes.

§ The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. A. V. Alexander)
I am sorry I did not hear a considerable part of the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster (Mr. E. Walkden) but I am not unaware of the case that he has probably put, with regard to the relation of this scheme to the Navy. The position of naval men on demobilisation in the next 12 months or so, differs considerably from that in either of the other two Services. We have to face commitments in the East 2676 and we shall have to demobilise such men as are eligible according to what is most convenient. It will certainly be impossible for us to hand over all these men to large depots at particular points, because we shall have to take men out of ship's companies and get them home as soon as possible at whatever. port in the United Kingdom they may happen to be. They will want to get home, and not to be held up in travelling, or at depots and barracks.

§ Mr. Tom Brown (Ince)
Is there a change in procedure now? I have always understood that at whatever port a naval man disembarked, he would have to go to a depot.

§ Mr. Alexander
Men who come from overseas and are drafted back to their ship will go, as always, to their manning depots if they are finally discharged. But as regards the vast number of ships that we have at present, and the few people who come out while the ship is in port, they can be demobilised straight away and given their tickets to go home. I ask my hon. Friend to note that, by not demobilising large numbers of men at the same time, as in the other two Services, we avoid having to set up large establishments at the ports. Therefore, we can set against anything extra that the retailer may get out of it, a saving in the pay of the men, and the upkeep of establishments during that time.
We have asked what is the feeling of the personnel of the Navy in relation both to the allocation scheme and the pay scheme and it is significant that in many cases the men take exception to the clothing being issued in kind, and would prefer cash and coupons. We have met that by giving vouchers instead of cash, and the necessary coupons. With regard to the marginal figures that my hon. Friend referred to, I, like him, have some experience of retail costing. It, is easy to create a wrong impression by quoting what is the gross margin to the retailer. You have to take into account the whole of his stock and his establishment charges and to remember the high rates of taxation on the profit that he makes. It should not be assumed, therefore, that the State loses all the margin to which my hon. Friend referred, because we save the cost of setting up an establishment for issuing the clothing, and we get a good deal of it back 2677 from the retailer, after he has met the net cost against the gross profit. We would like to say, however, that there is to be no difference whatever in the quality and the size—

§ Mr. E. Walkden
They are to be mass-produced.

§ Mr. Alexander
We do not agree. The suits are to be made, according to my information, of the specified utility pattern cloth.

§ Mr. Walkden
No.

§ Mr. Alexander
My hon. Friend has asked me to answer, and I am giving him the actual facts. There is only one danger, and I do not like to be anything but frank with the House. The only danger is lest, during this period when there will be a heavy demand upon the central clothing stores of the Army and Air Force, there might be some difficulty in getting sufficient stocks through the retailers. On that matter we are in special touch with the Board of Trade, who have promised us all their help to avoid anything of that kind. We shall watch specially to see whether there is any choke of that kind, and shall take immediate steps to remedy it. We do not anticipate there being any difficulty, although we recognise that that is the danger spot in the scheme. We shall make an allowance to meet the cost of altering a suit or an overcoat, or to deal with outsizes and the like.
2678 There is no question of giving the Navy man anything inferior to what is given to the other Services. The people who are looking after the welfare of the Navy in this matter are as anxious about that as any Member could possibly be. The arrangement we are making is to operate during the period I have referred to. We will go on with the consideration, already begun, of what will be necessary when we get towards the end of the Japanese war and a far larger percentage of the Royal Navy come to be due for release from the Service. After the most careful consideration, we think that for the time being this is the best plan we can adopt in the special circumstances.

§ Mr. Walkden
Would the right hon. Gentleman arrange that where a sailor elects to go to an Army outfitting depot, and it is convenient, he will be given authority to do so?

§ Mr. Alexander
I am glad that my hon. Friend has mentioned that point. We have already been in touch with the War Office to see how far we can arrange that. Where a man is in the vicinity of an Army clothing issue place and he would prefer to go there, I do not think that the War Office will raise any difficulty.