SHOPS, CENTRAL LONDON (CLOSING HOURS) (Hansard, 14 November 1944)

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid (St. Marylebone)
Thousands of workers who live in the central London area are extremely upset that they may have no opportunity of doing their Christmas shopping. By a Home Office Regulation that comes into force next Monday and continues until 13th January, large numbers of the shops in the central London area will be compelled to close at 4 o'clock: Before I proceed, I would like to apologise for raising this matter at such short notice. It so happened that the Adjournment period to-day had been taken by the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg), who, for reasons best known to himself, gave it up, and, therefore, the opportunity came my way. The only reason why I have taken it, and have not been able to give longer notice to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport, is because this Regulation comes into force next Monday, and, therefore, it is very unlikely that before then there will be another opportunity to raise what to thousands of people is a very urgent matter. While on the subject of the Parliamentary Secretary for War Transport, I should like to thank him for his courtesy in coming down to the House 1918 to-day at such short notice. In the same way, I appreciate, like many other hon. Members do, the personal care and consideration he invariably gives from his Department to all inquiries from M.P's.
This Regulation for the closing of shops in the central London area at 4 o'clock is creating more bad feeling than, perhaps, anything has done for a long time past. How, in Heaven's name, is a worker, who works and lives in central London and whose work takes him or her up to, say, five o'clock or 5.30 p.m., going to get the shopping done when the shops which are available to them close at four o'clock? I believe that all Departments, including the Home Office, are against this imposition—all except the Ministry of War Transport, and I understand that the main reason for the objection of that Ministry is this. They say that, unless the hours are staggered, there will be undue congestion. The idea is, I believe, that shoppers and shop assistants shall be able to get back to their homes between 3.30 and 4.30 p.m., and factory workers and others afterwards. The first observation I should like to make is that there are comparatively few factory workers in the central London area, and the second point to which I should like to draw the attention of my hon. Friend is this. Why, if traffic has worked more or less satisfactorily up to now, is it necessary to change conditions during the next six weeks, and especially over the Christmas period? I suppose that an answer to that would be that, by that means, one could get more people back home by black-out. Why is that necessary? Surely the necessity for this no longer exists to the same extent? I can well understand that, earlier on, it was very desirable for people to get back to their homes, and to what security they could find there, before the black-out, but now the same necessity does not arise.
My experience has been—and I may say that I have already had a considerable amount of representations on this subject, and only to-day there were three deputations in the Lobbies from various bodies—that what is going to aggravate people more than anything else, more than being congested, as undoubtedly they may be, is that thousands are not going to have a fair opportunity of doing the shopping for the various necessities of their existence as well as for Christmas. Incidentally, a large proportion of workers in the central 1919 London area do not travel, or do not travel very far, because they live in the central London area, and I think that some hon. Members would be amazed if they realised the number of poor people who live in congested areas in my constituency, which is supposed to be one of the richest boroughs in London. Remember, there are thousands and thousands of workers who live in the central London area.
Now from the shops' point of view this regulation is grossly unfair, especially to the small trader. Take, for example, part of my constituency—the Edgware Road. This Regulation is arbitrary to the extent that there will be a collection of shops on one side of the road which, from next Monday, will have to close at four o'clock, while their competitors on the other side of the road can stay open until the usual time. I have had several small traders come to me and say that this, in effect, means ruin to them. They state that their larger competitors, who may stay open longer, will have the advantage. These people often rely on Christmas trade to make all the difference between profit and loss. It is a little significant that, at a conference that was called by the Home Office and took place on 18th October last, no representatives of the chambers of commerce concerned were invited. Surely, they should have been invited?
The London public have had a grim enough time without unnecessarily ruining their forthcoming Christmas, to say nothing of ruining some small traders. This one-sided Regulation is by no means essential. Therefore, I would make this last-minute appeal to the Minister to use his influence to give these poor, hard-pressed people a break.

§ Wing-Commander Grant-Ferris (St. Pancras, North)
I should like to add a few words in support of what has been said by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for St. Marylebone (Captain Cunningham-Reid). I, too, to-day, as one of the Members for the Borough of St. Pancras, have been approached by the St. Pancras Chamber of Commerce in this matter and it is extremely unfortunate that this brake should be put upon trade in the coming months, and particularly during the Christmas trade. I understand that my hon. Friend the 1920 Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport will raise the arguments of his Department as to why this should be done. I would like to say to him and to the House, that large numbers of these people affected, probably the majority of the people affected, do not use his transport at all. Many of them are London and North Eastern and Great Western railway workers who have to walk home and will not be able to do Christmas or any shopping during December. I hope that this last-minute appeal, as my hon. and gallant Friend called it, will be accepted and that the Regulation will not be given force.

§ Mr. Evelyn Walkden (Doncaster)
Before the Minister replies, I would like to put a suggestion to him which he can also consider and which is in keeping with the various aspects of the trade as divorced from the arguments used by the hon. and gallant Member for St. Pancras, North (Wing-Commander Grant-Ferris) and the hon. and gallant Member who raised the issue. When we are considering whether there should be a relaxation of an Order such as this, we need some concrete evidence as to who is complaining and from whence is the complaint coming. That is very important. I have the privilege week by week of seeing reports on almost every kind of resolution about everything that matters and lots of things that do not matter from every trade union in the 73 areas around London and the immediate vicinity associated with this particular agitation in Marylebone and St. Pancras. Frankly, I have not seen a mention of this issue from any of the trade unions or any of the trades councils during the past week or two. Trades unionists, war workers and shop-steward movements are not backward in coming forward if there is any agitation which they think worth while backing. If our people were suffering from this particular issue, I would be the first to take up the case for the workers of either Marylebone or St. Pancras, not from the point of view of the hon. and gallant Gentleman who raised these issues, but from the trade union point of view.

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
The hon. Member said that he is not aware from whence representations have come. I do not know whether he was in the House at the beginning of my remarks, but if 1921 I did not make the matter clear perhaps I may now do so. I have had several representations from small traders in my constituency, and even more representations from war workers who are not able to cope with the problem of their shopping during the festive season.

§ Mr. Walkden
I do not wish to be unfair in examining the question, but I want the Minister to examine every angle and every argument. I do not dispute for a moment that small shopkeepers may have put forward pleas of the kind to which the hon. and gallant Member has referred, and, what is more, I believe that somehow these unfortunate small shopkeepers in Marylebone and St. Pancras are linked up with the West End of London. This particular Order was made to apply to the West End of London because people will, for some reason best known to themselves, perambulate round the West End of London later than they ought to do.

§ Mr. Reakes (Wallasey)
This is a free country.

§ Mr. Walkden
While this is a free country, there are a lot of regulations which we have to accept. My lad is serving in the Forces like other lads and he is doing it because he recognises that there is a need in the name of the country, but he is not free. What is more, we want these people who have sufficient time on their hands to go round the West End of London to recognise that there are war workers who want to get home. We do not want these people crowding London's buses, tubes and the Southern and Great Western Railways when railway workers want to get home.

§ Mr. Reakes
Has the hon. Gentleman any evidence that they are doing this?

§ Mr. Walkden
I travel home by tram, train, bus or tube. I never use petrol in London and it is on very rare occasions that I get a taxi, as I believe is the experience of other hon. Members, and on every night in the week there are lots of people who should not be in the buses or on the tubes when war workers are wanting to get home.

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
The conditions are exactly the same now.

§ Mr. Walkden
Conditions are the same, but there are reasons in the next few 1922 weeks why we do not want to encourage this sort of thing. I began by asking where the protest had come from, as no one has brought evidence that it has come from the trades union or the trades council or from the factories, other than an odd deputation, and has given no material evidence that, in particular, St. Pancras workers themselves have protested against it.
I feel that if the small shopkeeper has a case for selling in the back street of Marylebone or St. Pancras there should be, within reason, facilities for him to dispose of or sell his goods. If there are goods in the large stores in the West End of London which the workers want, they are snapped up before very long, as people come from all the suburbs of London. It is the small shopkeeper at the corner of the street in Marylebone and St. Pancras that matters and I would not like to see, by decision of the Home Secretary or the Minister of Transport, an injustice done to the small shopkeeper. He is there rendering a service to the consumer because it is convenient for the consumer to go to the small shopkeeper.

§ Wing-Commander Grant-Ferris
It would be an injustice to him.

§ Mr. Walkden
It would be an injustice to him. I have received letters the other way round from thousands of shop assistants in the London area saying that they hoped they would not have to go back this winter to what happened last winter because the position is fair all round. We want to be equitable with regard to the small shopkeeper, the shop assistant, and the consumers, including war workers and everybody else.

§ Captain Gammans (Hornsey)
Will the hon. Member say why he thinks the argument he is putting forward for closing shops at four o'clock does not equally apply all the year round?

§ Mr. Walkden
I am not asking that we should close the shops at four or half-past four. I am simply concerned with an Order and the reason for it. To talk about closing shops at 4.30 in the afternoon as a general practice is absurd. We could never really operate such a system, but something unusual has happened and we must apply a remedy, which is the one suggested in the Order to which the hon. and gallant Member objected. I beg of 1923 the Minister to weigh up the various considerations and see whether there is not something to be done to divorce these small shopkeepers in the back streets of Marylebone and St. Pancras from the general terms of the Order which is applicable to the shops in what we understand to be the West End of London—Harrods, Selfridges, Gamages, Barkers, and all the different firms—if they closed at 3 o'clock in the afternoon, in the main it would not affect them very much. Those people would still have time on their hands, and the stock of the choice goods would be sold before 11 o'clock on most days, so that would not bother war workers very much.
I do not want to make a mistake on this in suggesting lengthening the hours for shop workers, or giving the grocer—because the grocer is not involved in this argument—or the man who sells boots and shoes or wearing apparel, the opportunity to keep open until 8 o'clock. We do not believe in those silly ideas any more, but half an hour, or an hour probably, added to this order—maybe until 6 o'clock—would be in keeping with the rest of London. I believe that Tooting should not have an advantage over St. Pancras or St. Marylebone, so I ask the Minister to weigh up this as best he can, with all the arguments put forward, but bearing in mind that we, as trade unionists, are keeping a close eye on this issue. We are not going to agree simply because two or three people with corner shops come along and ask to keep open until 6, 7 or 8 o'clock at night as they did in those bad old days—

§ Mr. Reakes
That is not suggested.

§ Mr. Walkden
It is not suggested, it is true, but the hon. Member for Wallasey (Mr. Reakes) would do well to keep out of it because, as far as he is concerned, I know that the hours in his area are not unlimited but the shop workers there would not admire him if he suggested that they should keep open in Wallasey one hour longer, because they can keep open until 6 o'clock in Wallasey already.

§ Mr. Reakes
May I interrupt? It is the last thing I would suggest, but at a time—

§ Mr. Walkden
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
The hon. Member should give way.

§ Mr. Reakes
It is the last thing I should suggest, but if the Home Office, or any other Government Department, suggested closing at 4 o'clock on Merseyside during the Christmas shopping period, there would be strong protests made, and I would be the first to make them, because it is a ridiculous hour to close.

§ Mr. Walkden
Nobody is arguing in that direction at all. What we are trying to achieve is equity for all, and I beg the Minister to use what has been said to be quite sure that he does not do harm to the respective interests which have not been referred to here this afternoon, and to take into account the interests which I have suggested should have their point of view considered.

§ Mr. Reakes
That is all right.

§ Sir Herbert Williams (Croydon, South)
I did not know this subject was to be raised, and I have not been able to fortify myself by reference to the document which I am about to mention. To some extent, if it had not been for a Report by the Select Committee on National Expenditure, which was the result of evidence taken by the sub-committee of which I was chairman, possibly this Debate would not be taking place. I observe with interest that the Debate is to be replied to, not by the Home Secretary, who customarily deals with shop matters, but by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport.
The situation with regard to passenger road transport was and is bad. At the time we conducted our investigation, it was, I think, even worse than it is now, and one of the recommendations we made in order to avoid three lots of people trying to get home at the same time—factory workers, shop assistants and customers—was that something should be done about the hours of closing shops during the winter. This has nothing to do with trade union principles or any of those things; it is entirely a matter of transport, so far as I am concerned. Our recommendation was made in the light of the appalling transport situation. We all know, if we leave this House after dark, how difficult it is to get home, and some kind of effort to stagger the traffic, to a certain extent, was necessary. I have not looked at the Report, and it is now over two years ago since it was made, but it contained a number of recommenda- 1925 tions, one of which was that during the winter months, so long as traffic facilities were bad, some steps should be taken, the effect of which would be to make to go home earlier than other workers the people who worked in shops and their customers.

§ The parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Mr. Noel-Baker)
I am much obliged for the observations made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for St. Marylebone (Captain Cunningham-Reid) in opening this discussion. Nevertheless, I must explain that owing to circumstances over which I have no control, and perhaps he had not either, I first heard at five minutes to four that this matter was to be raised on the Adjournment. The House will understand that that left me in a rather embarrassing position. I am not blaming my hon. and gallant Friend—

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
That is not quite accurate. I told the hon. Gentleman's secretary at 2.30 p.m.

§ Mr. Noel-Baker
Unfortunately, owing to circumstances over which neither she nor I had any control, I did not hear about it until five minutes to four. My position is rather more embarrassing than the House can know because, at 12.30, another hon. Member asked if I would let him raise another matter on the Adjournment to-day, and I had to reply that, unfortunately, it was impossible for me to give him a proper answer and therefore I hoped that he would desist, which he agreed to do. I hope, therefore, that my other hon. Friend will not feel that I owe him an apology when he reads his HANSARD to-morrow. In any case, I think the hon. and gallant Member who raised this matter would not have a grievance if I said that I would note what he says, but could not make a substantive reply at such short notice. However, in view of the fact that there is great interest in this matter in the House, and because it is of great importance to my Minister and to the London Passenger Transport Board, I will do my best to make a substantive reply to the arguments that have been put forward.
My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for St. Pancras, North (Wing-Commander Grant-Ferris) asked: Why change the conditions when the traffic is 1926 going on quite well? Why take special measures to get people to go home before black-out, when otherwise they would not do it? The answer is very simple. We are not changing anything in comparison with what we have done for the last four years. This is the last of four years in which we have been obliged to make this arrangement. There is a change which I will explain in a moment, but the principle is the same. In the second place, we do not make people go earlier and move the peak forward. The peak of traffic moves itself forward, because, during the winter months, people who stay in their offices later in summer leave much earlier, and our winter peak, whether we like it or not, owing to the habits of the population of London, which we cannot control, is from 4.30 to 6 o'clock. It is a fact we have to accept. An hon. Member asked: If you have it at 4, why not all the year round? The answer is that the main peak of traffic moves itself to an earlier hour.
My hon. and gallant Friend spoke of the conference held by the Home Secretary in October. He complained that his four chambers of commerce had not been invited. I do not quite know how that happened but, in any case, it was not the responsibility of my Noble Friend, and I am sure the Home Secretary would have been very glad to have seen them then if he had been aware that they wanted to be received. However, I understand that he has seen them since.

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
Not yet.

§ Mr. Noel-Baker
I understood there was a meeting this morning.

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
No, he would not see them.

§ Mr. Noel-Baker
I see. In any case there was a meeting last October with all the main shopkeeper associations throughout the country. At that meeting the shopkeepers asked for a later hour. As my hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster (Mr. E. Walkden) said, the shop assistants asked that the present hours should be maintained because they thought it was right. At that meeting, in deference to the wishes of the shopkeepers, the Home Secretary, after consulting with my Noble Friend, made an important concession from the practice of previous years. Up to now we have had 12 to 13 1927 weeks—in November, December and January. This year we have only eight weeks. It was a concession to this demand made, because this was the fifth year of the war. Everybody, I am assured by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary, who took the chair at that conference, went away quite happy. The four chambers of commerce put this forward, primarily on the ground of convenience to the general public. They asked that the hour should be five instead of four. Perhaps it would serve the interests of shopkeepers to have another hour—I am not so sure—but I do not think it would help the general public very much, and certainly it would not help war workers because they are still in their factories at 5 o'clock. They could not possibly get there in time.

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
That is the whole point. How are war workers, or any workers for that matter, if they work until 5 or 6 o'clock, and live in the central London area, to do their shopping, when shops close at 4 o'clock?

§ Mr. Noel-Baker
They certainly cannot do it if the shops dose at 5, and 5 o'clock is really impossible because it comes at the height of our traffic peak. What, after the Home Secretary's concession made in October, is the present position? For these eight weeks shops will be closing at 4 o'clock. But any shop that sells food for human consumption, or any restaurant, is exempt from that regulation. They can keep open until 6 o'clock, or later if they are restaurants. All shops with no more than two assistants are also exempt on the ground that their trade does not add much to the existing traffic. From 13th January until 3rd March, under another regulation, with the details of which I will not weary the House, the closing hour is to be 6 o'clock. After that there is no war-time restriction; the ordinary peace-time regulations apply. In spite of that many shops voluntarily close at 5 o'clock, or earlier, all through the year because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster said, they can easily sell their goods before that hour, and they see no reason why they should keep open longer.
I am grateful for the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams), who spoke 1928 with authority, and said that this closing of shops is part of our general policy of staggering traffic. We have staggered factory workers all around London all through the year. They do not like it; it means that they have to get up half an hour earlier in winter and travel in darkness. It imposes inconveniences on them and, some say, hardship. But unless we had done that we could not have handled our traffic throughout the war. This staggering of shop hours is a small contribution toward the general policy to which factory workers themselves are making a great contribution all the year round. It is a contribution to which, however much we may regret it, we must stick. It is sometimes asked why we do not apply the same policy to theatre traffic at a later hour. People say, "Why do you not do something about that?" But theatre and cinema traffic is, by the different times of closing, already partially staggered, and apart from that it does not come at the same time as the war workers' peak of traffic.
Lastly, I have heard it said, "In the fifth year of the war this is a small relaxation and surely it could be allowed." Well, everybody wants relaxation; everybody is weary. But alas, transport is still in the war. Our transport machine is geared to the urgent necessities of war. If we adopt the hon. and gallant Gentleman's proposal we should have to have more buses at the peak hour, and we cannot do it. We cannot carry shoppers and shop assistants in addition to the ordinary peak traffic for two reasons—first, we have not the vehicles, and second if we had, we have not the workers to run them.

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
What we cannot understand is why peak traffic should be any different to-day from what it will be next Monday, when the regulation comes into force, and the times are changed.

§ Mr. Noel-Baker
Well, a date has to be chosen, and if we had had our way we would, on transport grounds, have changed the date a fortnight ago. We have found, broadly speaking, that in the winter months the peak of traffic is earlier than in the summer months. We cannot control it, and the hon. and gallant Gentleman will have to accept it, just as we do, and as the workers on the buses 1929 have to accept it. We have not enough workers even to keep our normal scheduled services running as they should. Let my hon. Friends reflect that we are trying to improve our services and do it when we have the maximum sickness among our workers. If we have a bad winter this time we shall fall down badly on our scheduled services.

§ Mr. E. Walkden
Will my hon. Friend make it quite clear that this order does not apply in any circumstances to the small shopkeeper who employs not more than two persons, and that he can keep open the additional hours which are permitted by the law?

§ Wing-Commander Grant-Ferris
Could the Parliamentary Secretary consider some relaxation during the week preceding Christmas?

§ Mr. Noel-Baker
I am glad to repeat my assurance that this Regulation does not apply to the small shopkeeper with only two assistants and does not apply to food shops, so that workers will, therefore, have a chance to get to these classes of shops. I cannot hold out any hope that there will be relaxation during the week before Christmas. I think that not even shopkeepers want that because they think that such a change would only result in chaos during a difficult time.

§ Mr. Rhys Davies (Westhoughton)
May I say how pleased I was to hear what my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary had to tell the House? This is a very old question which we have heard debated for the last 20 years. There are two points I want to put to the hon. and gallant Member for St. Marylebone (Captain Cunningham-Reid). The problem of keeping shops open has always turned around the position that one set of shopkeepers has always been penalised by competition. I do not think that is the case here, because people who go to Barkers, Selfridges, and Swan and Edgars are, generally speaking, of a different type from those who go to small food shops.

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
Does the hon. Member realise that in my constituency, along the Edgware Road next Monday, shops on one side will close at 4 o'clock 1930 while on the other side their competitors will be allowed to stay open?

§ Mr. Davies
We had exactly the same argument when we talked about public houses. On one side of Oxford Street they were closed an hour earlier than on the other. If I had my way they would all close at an earlier hour. I am sure that Members of all parties are very alarmed at the accidents on the roads, and I should have thought every Member would bear that point in mind when we are talking about traffic. It is terrible to think of the numbers killed when, in fact, the traffic, I understand, is less than it was. No one as yet has been able to collect the voices of the customers who are involved here. The shopkeepers and the shop assistants have spoken, but in all my experience I have yet to find any organisation of any kind among the customers who have ever said at any time that the shops anywhere are closing too early.

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
Because the customers are not organised.

§ Mr. Davies
Exactly. If they felt as deeply as hon. Members think, they would have organised.

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
Many have complained to me individually.

§ Wing-Commander Grant Ferris
On the point about accidents, does the hon. Gentleman realise that the area in question has the best record for accidents in the whole country?

§ Mr. Davies
Yes, simply because of these closing arrangements. If the shops were opened until six or seven, the accidents would probably double, and the hon. Gentleman is perfectly correct. But let us all understand one thing. These are just in the transition stage. I hope that some day we shall get back to the ordinary course adopted under the Shops Act, and even then there would still be complaints of some shopkeepers competing unduly with the rest, but on the whole I agree with what has been said by the Government on the subject.