HC Deb 08 March 1944 vol 397 cc2053-70
The Minister of Health (Mr. Willink)

With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and with the leave of the House, I should like to make a short statement on the Government's housing policy for the first two years after the end of the war in Europe.

Mr. A. Bevan

Before the statement is made, might I ask your guidance in this matter, Mr. Speaker? Is the Adjournment to be moved and are we to have a Debate on this matter? Is this the sort of statement that ought to be made at this time? On several occasions, in the last three or four weeks, I have asked for facilities for a Debate on housing; now we are to have a very important statement made after Questions, which we cannot debate, although in the other place there have been two Debates on the matter. It is an outrageous abuse of Parliamentary procedure.

Mr. Willink

No doubt my hon. Friend will have an opportunity to—

Mr. Bevan

I have asked for Mr. Speaker's guidance. On a point of Order, may I ask you Mr. Speaker, whether this procedure is not used, as a general rule, for statements which it is in the public interest to hear at the earliest possible moment? I submit there cannot be any urgency about making the statement now proposed. We ought to have had this statement before. This proposal is an abuse of procedure.

Mr. Speaker

I am afraid I cannot accept what the hon. Gentleman says. A Minister may, at any time, make a statement. The responsibility is his, and if the House does not like it, it can show its objection.

Mr. Shinwell

In the ordinary course, that would be legitimate. Indeed, hon. Members have very rarely objected to Government statements being made at the end of Questions, but, be it noted—and this is the peculiar circumstance—that hon. Members have asked the Government for a day on which to debate housing, which has already been debated in another place. Now the Minister comes forward to make a statement on housing which is not debatable. Is it possible to ascertain from the Leader of the House whether, in view of the statement that is about to be made, he will arrange for an early Debate on this subject?

Mr. Eden

I really do not know why the hon. Gentleman is so indignant about this matter. I have arranged it in this way, in consultation with my right hon. and learned Friend, simply because I thought it would be the most convenient method. My right hon. and learned Friend is going to make a brief statement now, and that is quite a normal thing to do. It was my intention, as I knew that hon. Members might ask for a Debate, to say that naturally I would make facilities for a Debate at the earliest possible time. I must remind the House that I have several times been asked to let the House have these statements a little in advance of the Debate, so that the Debate could take place more usefully and more intelligently.

Mr. Granville

Is there not some difference between the war-time practice of a Minister making a statement on an item of Business, and a declaration of major Government policy which cannot be dealt with except by question and answer? If this is a precedent which is to be followed, is it not an entirely new departure?

Mr. Maxton

This is what happens. A Minister makes a statement. The gentlemen of the Press get it, and the papers come out and say that it was accepted with the heartiest approval on the part of the House. Immediately the whole country believes that this is the housing policy and that the whole House has approved it.

Mr. Molson

Is it not the case that this House is always very embarrassed in debating any matter, if it has not had previous notice of the intentions of the Government? [HON. MEMBERS: "By a White Paper."] Is it not for the general convenience of Members that the statement should be made in advance in order that Members might consider the matter?

Earl Winterton

On the point of Order. I would like to pursue a point which I put to you, Mr. Speaker, on a previous occasion. You then ruled, I think, that a statement of this kind was quite in Order and that it was in accord with the procedure of the House that a Minister should make such a statement. To-day you have said, I believe, in reply to the point of Order, that it is within the competence of the House to decide whether the statement should be made or not. Does that mean that, if objection is taken by hon. Members to the statement being made, we can have a discussion on it?

Mr. Speaker

I said that it was within the discretion of the Minister.

Sir Percy Harris

May I ask whether this is to be made a precedent, and that it will be the general practice for important statements on policy to be made at Question time, rather than in the form of a White Paper?

Mr. Speaker

That is not a matter for me, but a matter for the House to decide, and for the Leader of the House.

Mr. A. Bevan

I understand you now to say, Mr. Speaker, that it is always competent, under the Rules of the House, for the Government to make a statement. Is it not a fact that you have been placed on more than one occasion in a very embarrassing situation because there has been no Motion before the House and it has not been possible for you to decide when the discussion of questions stops? Is it not the case that if the right hon. and learned Gentleman wishes to make a statement of this nature, of which no Private Notice has been given, he should do so by moving the Adjournment of the House, in order that the Chair might be put in command of the House? The Chair will not be in command of the House if the right hon. and learned Gentleman makes his statement in this way. I submit that on many occasions it has been very embarrassing for the House. Further, is it not a fact that the procedure of the White Paper is far better than springing a statement of this nature on the House?

Earl Winterton

May I submit a further point? In the past, when statements of this kind were made, if the House was dissatisfied, an hon. Member rose and moved the Adjournment on a question of definite and urgent public importance, in order to call attention to the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's statement. Without reflecting upon your predecessor, I would state that the most ingenious Member of the House never succeeded, during the last 10 years, in getting the Adjournment moved on a question of definite and public and urgent importance, as your predecessor always ruled that it was not a matter of definite and urgent public importance. Therefore, a most important right of this House has been taken away.

Mr. Gallacher

Is it not the case that in a matter of this kind there can be no question of urgency, in view of the fact that this concerns the Government housing policy for the two years following the war? Is it not therefore clear that the matter is presented to us in this form, not for the benefit of the House, but arising out of the trend of the by-elections in the country? I appeal to you, Mr. Speaker, not to allow this to be put across the House, because the Minister of Health has already been used as the Government stalking horse.

Mr. Eden

Perhaps I might be allowed to say another word. I am sorry that this view should have been taken of the procedure we are following. It was not the intention of the Government to cause embarrassment to the House. When the hon. Member complains that Members have no chance to comment on this statement, and says that it would be better to produce a White Paper, I must point out that exactly the same argument could be advanced—

Mr. Bevan

No.

Mr. Eden

Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to finish my sentence. I say exactly the same result would have followed, namely, that the Press could have commented on the White Paper before the House debated it, just as the Press can comment on this statement. The House is in no way limited by a statement which my right hon. and learned Friend will make to-day. It is being made in response to appeals which I have had several times that such statements should be made before a subject is debated. Therefore the sole reason for this procedure, for which I take responsibility, is because I thought it would be for the convenience of hon. Members. I was about to suggest, after the statement—anticipating that hon. Members would wish to discuss it—that I would arrange an early day for a Debate. I thought that was the best possible way in which to meet the wishes of the House.

Mr. Bevan

In my respectful submission the right hon. Gentleman is not correct. There is all the difference in the world between a White Paper and a statement made in the House. A statement in the House is open to the abuses I have already mentioned; the immediate reaction of the House is obtained to it without effective debate, and as the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) has pointed out, the Press takes the immediate reaction of the House as an indication of the temper of the House on that particular matter. That is not the case when there is a White Paper.

Commander Sir Archibald Southby

Following on what the Noble Lord has said, may I ask you, Mr. Speaker, as the guardian of the liberties of hon. Members, how hon. Members can express their disapproval of this system of introducing the Government's view on what may be highly controversial legislation? How can the House express its views as to whether it likes this procedure or not?

Mr. Rhys Davies

When the right hon. and learned Gentleman proposed to make this statement, he said he would do so "with the leave of the House." I would like to ask you, Mr. Speaker, what technical form the House can adopt to show that it does not give leave?

Mr. Speaker

I cannot answer the hon. Member's question, but the House can always make its wishes known and it has made them known fairly clearly. I might point out that had any hon. Member put a Question down, the Minister might quite well have said, "As the answer is rather long, I will, with permission, give it after Questions."

Mr. Arthur Greenwood

Seeing that there is a difference of opinion about the procedure in these matters, and that there are, as I appreciate, arguments on both sides, may I ask whether if this statement were made to-day there could be consultations, before any future statements of the kind are made, between all parties in the House through the usual channels on the kind of procedure which should be followed? There is growing up a very strong feeling against a large number of Ministerial statements being made at the end of Questions, not merely because such statements tend to waste an amount of debating time, but because the House is not in a position, under its Rules, to debate the statement which has been made. I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman would wish the Minister of Health to make his statement but I suggest that before this kind of experiment is tried again there should be consultations and that the temper and wishes of the House should be considered.

Mr. Eden

It is my task to ascertain the wishes of the House and sometimes I find it is a little difficult. I was distinctly under the impression that a number of hon. Members—the right hon. Gentleman among others—felt it desirable that the House should be given the fullest information at the earliest possible moment. That is the general reason for these statements which I have consistently encouraged my colleagues to make, but if I am to modify that attitude, naturally, I will attempt to discover what is the feeling of the House. I suggest that meanwhile the House should be good enough to hear what my right hon. and learned Friend has to say.

Mr. Shinwell

May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether the usual procedure, when the House has agreed to the Minister making a statement at the end of Questions, is to permit questions to be put to the Minister? May I also ask whether you would put any limit on the number of questions put by hon. Members to the Minister following his statement?

Sir A. Southby

Following upon your reply to my earlier question, may I respectfully submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that had this statement been made in reply to a Question, it would have been open to the hon. Member who asked the Question, to give notice to raise the matter on the Adjournment. Is it possible for any Member to give notice to raise this matter on the Adjournment, after the statement has been made?

Mr. Speaker

My duty is to obey the Rules of the House. Perhaps I might read what Erskine May says: Explanations are made to the House on behalf of the Government regarding their domestic and foreign policy; … announcing the legislative proposals they intend to submit to Parliament; or the course they intend to adopt in the transaction and arrangement of public business. The time when these explanations are made is after the questions to ministers and to other members have been answered and before the commencement of public business; though a ministerial explanation has been made before the Speaker began to call on members to put their questions upon the notice paper. As no question is before the House, debate on such statements is irregular. Those are the Rules of the House.

Mr. Shinwell

I have asked a direct question. If hon. Members desire to put questions to the Minister on an important statement of public policy, will there be any limit imposed?

Mr. Speaker

That is a hypothetical question. I would have to hear what the questions are. If the questions are unreasonably long, it is my usual practice to impose a limit and go on to the next Business, but I do not curtail questions unduly. I like to give a fair show to either side but there are limits.

Mr. Willink

May I say that there is nothing I should welcome more than an early Debate on this subject? I would repeat at the outset, for the convenience of the House, that this statement deals with the first two years after the end of the war in Europe. During that period our primary task must be to meet the urgent needs of those who have no homes of their own. These could not be fully met or met with sufficient speed by building new houses of permanent construction. In addition, we shall have to undertake a substantial amount of emergency housing both by adapting existing buildings and by providing temporary accommodation of various kinds.

My Noble Friend the Minister of Works has already outlined the preparations that are being made in the sphere of temporary housing. The object of this statement is to indicate the lines on which the Government propose to proceed, simultaneously, with the construction of new houses of a permanent type. Both types, the permanent and the temporary, are complementary parts of a single Government policy for providing the largest possible number of new homes during these first two years.

To enable local authorities to make an early start, as soon as conditions permit, with the construction of new houses of a permanent type, the Government have decided to introduce temporary legislation extending the present scope of housing subsidies So as to include dwellings built to meet general needs. Local authorities will be enable to buy in advance land required for these housing operations, using compulsory powers if necessary. And Parliament will be asked to empower the responsible Ministers, as after the last war, to confirm compulsory purchase orders for the acquisition of land for housing purposes without holding an inquiry. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I are informing local authorities of these decisions to-day.

We hope to be able to introduce the necessary legislation shortly after the Easter Recess. Meanwhile, I am to-day inviting representatives of the associations of local authorities and of the London County Council to meet me at an early date to discuss the arrangements for housing subsidies. The local authorities will be invited to proceed on the basis that all preliminary preparations should be made to ensure that, if building resources should permit, 100,000 houses can be completed or under construction by the close of the first year after the end of hostilities in Europe and a further 200,000 by the close of the second year. These 300,000 houses will be in addition to those built under the programme of temporary construction. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has asked me to make it clear that the decisions and the programme to which I have referred cover Scotland as well as England and Wales, and that he is taking similar action to give effect to them.

This statement has necessarily been brief. There are still many important decisions to be taken, including the part to be played by private enterprise. These will, I can assure the House, be taken at the earliest possible moment. The Government considered, however, that in view of the keen interest which is taken in this vital subject the House would wish to be informed of these decisions at the first opportunity.

Mr. Bevan

On a point of Order. Are we to understand that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has already anticipated the decision of the House upon the proposals?

Mr. Buchanan

I was not taking sides earlier, but, in view of the protests that have been made, I ask what is it proposed to do? I understand that the Minister has now informed the local authorities of the steps that he is going to take, without having discussed the matter with the House of Commons. Could I ask the Leader of the House, in view of that statement, on what is perhaps the most important social issue before this country at the moment, whether if the Minister has already taken certain steps and made certain decisions, one of two things should not happen—either that the Debate should take place now, or that the Minister should postpone these commitments for a day or two, until Parliament has had some opportunity of discussing them?

Mr. Bevan

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman re-read that portion of the statement which referred to local authorities?

Mr. Willink

Perhaps I may put it in my own words. [HON. MEMBERS: "No; read it."] I will, in due course.

Mr. Sloan

The Minister has been asked to read the statement, and he is now going to give his own version of what he has read. Are we not entitled to have it re-read?

Mrs. Tate

One of the statements made by the Minister was that he proposed to give the local authorities compulsory powers to acquire land for the building of houses. Personally, I heartily approve of that. That is recommended in the Uthwatt Report on which the House has repeatedly asked the Government to declare their policy.

Mr. Willink

I said that I would say something in my own words and then reread the passage. The discussions which I propose to have with the local authorities will be entirely without commitments. The legislation which I propose to introduce will be brought forward after Easter. Really no commitment is being entered into at all. May I remind the House of the terms of this statement? It deals entirely with the character of the legislation I hope to introduce, which will not be until after the Debate. Meanwhile, in what is the perfectly normal course, I wish to discuss the matter with the local authorities to obtain their views.

Mr. Buchanan

Let the Minister re-read the statement. If he wishes to give his explanation first, that is the customary thing; but if we are to extend courtesy to him, let him do the thing properly, and re-read the statement. [Interruption.] The lackeys can shout what they like, but I am not yet a lackey. I put to the Minister that there were two statements made about the local authorities: one was, that he had instructed the local authorities, and the second was, that he was consulting the local authorities. Those were two distinct statements, and I ask the Minister to read them again.

Mr. Willink

With the greatest pleasure; but my hon. Friend is under a misconception. We are not instructing local authorities. [HON. MEMBERS: "Read it."] I doubt whether the House wants to hear it all again. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] I only wanted to save time, but I will read it if hon. Members wish. During that period"— that is, the first two years after the end of the war in Europe— our primary task must be to meet the urgent needs of those who have no homes of their own. These could not be fully met or met with sufficient speed by building new houses of permanent construction. In addition, we shall have to undertake a substantial amount of emergency housing, both by adapting existing buildings and by providing temporary accommodation of various kinds. My Noble Friend the Minister of Works has already outlined the preparations that are being made in the sphere of temporary housing. The object of this statement is to indicate the lines on which the Government propose to proceed, simultaneously, with the construction of new houses of a permanent type. Both types, the permanent and the temporary, are complementary parts of a single Government policy for providing the largest possible number of new homes during these first two years. To enable local authorities to make an early start, as soon as conditions permit, with the construction of new houses of a permanent type, the Government have decided to introduce temporary legislation extending the present scope of housing subsidies so as to include dwellings built to meet general needs. Local authorities will be enabled to buy in advance land required for these housing operations, using compulsory powers if necessary. And Parliament will be asked to empower the responsible Ministers, as after the last war, to confirm compulsory purchase orders for the acquisition of land for housing purposes without holding an inquiry. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I are informing local authorities of these decisions to-day"— [Interruption.] Those are decisions to introduce legislation. Then the date of the proposed legislation is given. We hope to be able to introduce the necessary legislation shortly after the Easter Recess. Meanwhile, I am to-day inviting representatives of the associations of local authorities and of the London County Council to meet me at an early date to discuss the arrangements for housing subsidies. The local authorities will be invited to proceed on the basis that all preliminary preparations should be made to ensure that, if building resources should permit, 100,000 houses can be completed or under construction by the close of the first year after the end of hostilities in Europe and a further 200,000 by the close of the second year. These 300,000 houses will be in addition to those built under the programme of temporary construction. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has asked me to make it clear that the decisions and the programme to which I have referred cover Scotland as well as England and Wales and that he is taking similar action to give effect to them. This statement has necessarily been brief. There are still many important decisions to be taken, including the part to be played by private enterprise. These will, I can assure the House, be taken at the earliest possible moment. The Government considered, however, that in view of the keen interest which is taken in this vital subject, the House would wish to be informed of these decisions at the first opportunity.

Mr. Bowles

We have recently been told over and over again by Ministers that they have entered into commitments with outside bodies. The Minister is not going to introduce his latest legislation until after Easter. In the meantime he is going to have consultations with various local authorities in this country and in Scotland. Will he undertake now and promise the House that no undertaking entered into will in any way influence his decision in coming to the House?

Mr. Willink

I should indeed be mad if I were to enter into any such commitments.

Sir Alfred Beit

I should like to ask whether any decision has yet been reached as to the price which is to be paid for the land which the local authorities are to be allowed to purchase compulsorily or how that price has been determined?

Mr.Willink

The position under the law as it stands at present is that if an agreement is not reached the land will be acquired under the terms of the Acquisition of Land Act.

Mr. McGovern

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell us, with regard to the 100,000 houses to be built in the first year and the 200,000 to be built in the second year, what number of those houses will be for Scotland alone in each year?

Mr. Willink

I have not that figure precisely in mind. There is a tentative idea as to the proportion. The House will realise that this whole programme is for a period when this country is still at war.

Mr. Lipson

In his statement my right hon. and learned Friend mentioned a target of 300,000 permanent new houses within the first two years. Will he tell us what is the target for temporary houses within that period? Is there a target?

Mr. Willink

I cannot give the hon. Member any figure for that at the moment.

Mr. McNeil

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell us, even approximately, what proportion of these 300,000 houses are ear-marked for Scottish needs?

Mr. Willink

I would ask my hon. Friend to put down a Question on that point. I should not like to give an answer now.

Mr. A. Bevan

I understood from the right hon. and learned Gentleman's second reading of his statement that in consequence of a statement made in another place, or following a statement made in another place, expenditure has already been incurred by the Minister of Works for temporary housing schemes. Is it not a fact that there is very great controversy about temporary housing schemes, and that the House of Commons has not yet agreed to this expenditure? The Government are spending public money in anticipation of the consent of the House to its being spent, and we ought to have had an opportunity of deciding the merits of temporary housing before any steps were taken to spend public money. Further, is it not a fact that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will not be able to have intelligent discussions with local authorities on these matters except by anticipating that the House of Commons will, in fact, endorse the details of the legislation brought before the House, and is not that reducing Parliament to a rubber-stamp status?

Mr. Willink

On the two points put to me by the hon. Member, I should have thought that in our present situation it would have been in accordance with the wishes of the House and of everybody in the country that experimental work should be done both in the sphere of houses called permanent and in the sphere of houses called temporary.

Mr. A. Bevan

The Minister did not say "experimental."

Mr. Willink

Experimental work is going on in both fields. With regard to the other matter, I hope to be in a position to carry on intelligent discussions with the local authorities, because they will have much to tell me with regard to the type and arrangement of subsidy which will be most convenient for them.

Mr. Shinwell

I was under the impression before we had this little fracas about procedure that my right hon. and learned Friend was going to make a far-reaching statement. I now wish to ask him if all that the Government have so far decided is that at the close of the European war—whenever that happens, and that is hypothetical—whether in the first year after the close of the European war all that the Government propose to do, in conjunction with the local authorities, is to build 100,000 houses of a permanent character? Are we to understand that all their plans are designed to produce only that small number of houses, and does the right hon. and learned Gentleman really imagine that that will satisfy the needs of the people of this country one year after the close of the European war?

Mr. Willink

The housing needs of this country will certainly not be satisfied while this country is still at war.

Mr. Maxton

The hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) appears to think that the mountain in labour will produce only a ridiculus mus. Two or three Ministers are concerned here, including the Minister of Health and the Minister of Reconstruction, but could the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell us this? As 100,000 is the figure of his programme for permanent houses he must have some idea in his mind as to the number of temporary houses, and must have some idea, having regard to the use of labour and materials, as to the number under private enterprise which can be built. Could he elaborate this a little to give us the round figure of all the houses?

Mr. Willink

I think all I can say is that I shall amplify this information ha the course of the Debate. I am sure the House will realise that during the course of a major war, during a period which is hypothetical, it is impossible to give an estimate as to the amount of materials and the building capacity which will be available for temporary housing. I really should not be asked to give such an estimate while even the type or types of temporary houses are in the experimental stage.

Earl Winterton

I desire to put a question to the Leader of the House which I think may be helpful in this matter. In view of the obvious desire of all hon. Members in all parts of the House to discuss this matter further before legislation is introduced, will he not consider putting down, on a day before Easter, a substan- tive Motion in order to get over what, if I am permitted to say so, I would describe as the ridiculous rule which we have about the Adjournment. I would suggest a Motion somewhat in these terms: "That this House desires to consider future housing legislation." The advantage of that would be that hon. Members in all parts of the House would be able to give their views before the Minister introduced his legislation.

Mr. Eden

I was trying to say earlier, when things became so heated, that it was my intention to suggest to the House that we should have a day to discuss housing policy before my right hon. and learned Friend introduced his legislation. That was exactly the procedure I was intending to follow. As to how exactly we should do that, whether by a Motion or on the Consolidated Fund Bill, I have not decided.

Mr. Moelwyn Huģhes

May I put a further question? With regard to the local authorities, is it intended that they should proceed to acquire land, exercising now their existing powers, before this legislation is passed as a contribution towards the total amount of land they have to get? Secondly, is it intended to legislate for the powers that the Minister has mentioned before the Government have come to a decision and announced it upon the solution of the questions of compensation and betterment?

Hon. Members

The Uthwatt Report.

Mr. Willink

Yes, that is the Uthwatt Report. The legislation to which I have referred would, I think, be properly introduced and become law even if these decisions had not been reached. It would certainly be a great convenience to my Department and the local authorities to have the particular legislative Measures indicated in this statement in advance of or at the same time as a decision of that kind. With regard to the acquisition of further land at this moment, there is no doubt that many authorities are desirous of acquiring further land, and I will consider whether that should be done by administrative action or within the Bill.

Lieut.-Colonel Dower

Can my right hon. and learned Friend say whether that land is going to be acquired before it is paid for?

Mr. Sloan

Can we have this Scottish business made a little more clear? The Secretary of State is sitting on the Treasury bench and it is difficult for us to receive an answer from an English Minister. Can he tell us whether the 100,000 houses include the Scottish quota, or are we to have a Scottish quota definitely fixed for each year in the post-war years?

Mr. Buchanan

May I ask the Secretary of State for Scotland, seeing that housing has always been under his purview in Scotland, whether he is intending to inform the House how many houses Scotland is to have built in the post-war years? A second question I would put to the Minister of Health. It is about the 100,000 houses; I think his statement was a little confused. He said 100,000 houses either built or in course of construction, which are totally different things. We might have only 10,000 houses built and 90,000 in course of construction. Has he any idea as to the number of houses that will be definitely constructed in the first 12 months?

Mr. Willink

All I can say is that I shall do all I can to see that the number is the maximum in relation to our supplies of labour and material. If hon. Members will study the statement they will see that of set purpose I have been most careful not to make promises with regard to a period of 12 months which will undoubtedly be a period of intense military activity.

Mr. Arthur Greenwood

May I say a word on the point made by my Noble Friend the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton)? When the promised discussion takes place, as it affects possible legislation it is quite clear that it must be on the basis of untrammelled debate, and therefore the ordinary Adjournment Motion would not meet the case, and I would support my Noble Friend in the view that it had better take place on a Motion by the Government which would enable us to discuss all the possible legislative changes that might have to be made.

Mr. Eden

I was not contemplating an Adjournment Motion; it was not in my mind. I was considering a positive Motion. We have some Business to get through, but I think we can so arrange the Business as to allow the discussion to take place.

Mr. Buchanan

With regard to the Scottish position, for good or ill Parliament has decided that in this matter Scotland stands separate, and I would ask the Secretary of State for Scotland, in all seriousness, seeing that we have had a statement about the number of houses to be built, whether he, as the responsible Minister for Scotland, could make a statement as to how many permanent houses Scotland will secure in the two years after the close of the war?

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. T. Johnston)

The statement made by the Minister to-day dealt primarily with the question of immediate procedure and of consultation with the local authorities. What was incorporated in that statement was a sentence or two to the effect that part of our consultations would be taking place between the Scottish Office and the Scottish local authorities. For my part, I would not care to condescend upon an actual figure as to the number of houses of permament construction that can be built or be under construction within a one-year period until I am more fully informed as to the amount of labour that will be available.

Mr. A. Bevan

May I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman to tell the House how it is possible for local authorities to set about the immediate compulsory purchase of land? He has said that the local authorities are going to be invited immediately to purchase land.

Mr. Willink

I did not say that. What I said was that I would consider whether they should be allowed to acquire more land immediately or await legislation.

Mr. Bevan

Is it not a fact that the local authorities will take no steps to acquire land if they suspect that more favourable conditions for the purchase of land will exist in the future? I know that is the whole difficulty.

Mr. Molson

May I ask my right hon. and learned Friend whether he is bearing in mind the promise of the Minister of Reconstruction to introduce legislation this Session with regard to the compulsory acquisition of land; and whether, in his statement to-day, he is contemplating using the legislation now on the Statute Book, or whether the Government are going to introduce the legislation promised by the Minister of Reconstruction?

Mr. Willink

That is not really a question for me. I have in mind what my Noble Friend said. Land could be acquired under the law as it stands to-day.