HC Deb 29 July 1943 vol 391 cc1791-6
Mr. Arthur Greenwood

May I ask the Leader of the House to state the forthcoming Business?

The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden)

Yes, Sir. The Business will be as follows:

First Sitting Day.—Committee and remaining stages of the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill. A Debate will take place on questions affecting Women in National Service.

Second Sitting Day.—Motion to approve the draft Supplementary Pensions (Amendment) and draft Unemployment Assistance (Amendment) Regulations.

Third Sitting Day.—It is proposed to adjourn for the Summer Recess.

During the week we shall consider any Amendments which may be made to Bills now in another place.

Mr. Greenwood

Has my right hon. Friend given any further consideration to the possibility of a discussion on the war situation and whether it would be possible, without having a roaming discussion on the war situation, to have a Debate one day in the next series of Sittings on the political aspects of it?

Mr. Eden

I have, of course, given some consideration to this matter. If I understand the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion aright, it is that we should have a Debate on the political aspects of the war situation. I am bound to say that at first sight I do doubt the utility of that at this moment. The Prime Minister explained the position the other day. He said, I thought with the general consent of the House, that we were in the face of a political situation which is changing or may change hour by hour and day by day. It is not that I do not want a Debate if the House would like to have one, but I think we must reflect upon its utility. May I put to the House another consideration which we have in mina? None of us can tell whether or not we may not have to return at some time during the Adjournment. I think myself it is very likely we shall have to. If that were the case, we should have to return for some definite situation, and naturally that would be an appropriate time, on a definite situation, for the House to have a discussion. For my part, I must say I would regard it as not very wise to have a Debate now on the political aspects of the war situation, with the Italian position as it is at the present time.

Mr. Greenwood

May I put this point, merely with a desire to help the Government and the Allies? It would, I think, give great encouragement to the forces of freedom in Italy and in the other occupied countries if this House were formally to declare its views on the political issue. It may be Badoglio or anybody else who becomes the leader for the time being of the Italian Government, but I think it would hearten the forces of resistance in Europe to know that this House of Commons does stand behind them in their fight for freedom.

Mr. Eden

I entirely agree that it is desirable that Europe should understand that, but I must say that I should not have thought Europe was in the very least possible doubt about it.

Mr. A. Bevan

Oh!

Mr. Eden

Does the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) suggest that we are not in favour of the forces of freedom in Europe?

Mr. Bevan

After North Africa we are not.

Mr. Eden

I tell the hon. Member—

Mr. Bevan

Well, give us an opportunity to tell them.

Mr. Eden

—that the Prime Minister and the Government have just as much right to speak for the forces of freedom as he can have. As regards the Debate, I would like to be given a chance of consulting the Prime Minister about this situation, because it is a serious decision to take if we are to have a war Debate. I can tell the House that in the view of the War Cabinet it is inadvisable—we have already discussed it—in the present circumstances. If we are to have one, if the House insists upon one—[HON. MEMBERS: "Yes" and "No."] Clearly, it is a matter on which there are divided opinions, and it is very clearly a matter which must be considered carefully. If we are to have a war Debate, then there will be necessarily a rearrangement of the whole Business for the next series of Sittings, and probably an extra day's Sitting. I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should allow me to consider the matter in the light of this discussion, and I will announce a decision on the first Sitting Day, because if there is a Debate, the House will certainly have to sit an additional day.

Mr. Greenwood

I do not see the reason for all this heat. I hope I have kept myself within the bounds of decorum. Would it be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to make an announcement on the next Sitting Day rather than to wait till the first Sitting Day in the next Series? If that is possible, I think it will be for the convenience of the House to know before we depart for the week-end what the Business is to be.

Mr. Eden

Yes, Sir. I will gladly consider the suggestion. I think I can certainly do it on the next Sitting Day. I would like to leave this subject on the note of saying that the War Cabinet did consider this matter yesterday, and they were definitely of the opinion that it would be inadvisable to have a Debate.

Mr. Greenwood

On the Business for the second Sitting Day, may I ask whether the Debate will be so arranged that it may cover the wider aspect of the pensions Regulations? I understand that the Regulations which are to be submitted to the House are Regulations directly arising out of the Bill that has been recently put on the Statute Book, but the last time this matter was under full consideration an undertaking was given that old age pensioners and others would have their cases looked at, with a view to revised Regulations. If that could be done, I think it would expedite a great deal the Business for the next series of Sittings.

Mr. Eden

Yes, Sir, I will look at that suggestion and consider it, but I think it is a matter for the Chair. My impression is that the anxieties of the right hon. Gentleman would not be found to arise; but I think we had better see the Paper first.

Sir H. Williams

I should like to raise a different issue. The Business for the first Sitting Day has been announced as a Debate on women's work during the war. While that is no doubt a very suitable subject for discussion, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman could indices at whose request this Debate is taking place, and in future to indicate which of the "usual channels" has been consulted?

Mr. Eden

We are not making any precedent. For the last two years a Debate has been held on these lines, with the general approval, I think, and agreement of the House. It is quite natural that the lady Members of the House should like an opportunity like this, and I think the House is willing to accord it to them, in the wider interests of the nation.

Sir H. Williams

I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman has completely misunderstood the purpose of my question. When we have special Debates arrangements are made through the usual channels. I would like to know, when we have special Debates arranged who has made the request.

Mr. Eden

I can tell my hon. Friend that the request was made by Members of all parties.

Mr. Glenvil Hall

May I ask whether the Regulations which we are to discuss upon the second Sitting Day will be issued in good time, so that Members may be able to consider them?

Mr. Eden

I hope that they will be issued to-morrow.

Mr. Gallacher

Is the Leader of the House quite cognisant of the fact that the military situation at the moment is more important than a discussion on the political situation? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] It is very much more important. Will the right hon. Gentleman keep in mind the point that our Russian Allies are suffering terrible casualties and that what we should be considering is how the most immediate assistance could be brought to them—[Hear, hear]—and the European Continent militarily, and not a general discussion?

Mr. Shinwell

Further to that question, in view of the approval accorded to the suggestions of my hon. Friend the Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) that there should be a Debate on the military situation, and the endorsement of it from the other side, will my right hon. Friend take note of that?

Mr. Eden

The hon. Gentleman has just proved my difficulty of the utter impossibility of extricating the military from the political.

Mr. Stokes

Are any arrangements being made with regard to the Debate to-day about a suspension of the Rule, as a large number of people want to speak? Is it intended to suspend the Rule so that we may have a longer time?

Mr. Eden

I was not proposing to suspend the Rule to-night. There is an extra hour on the next Sitting Day because there are no Questions. In those circumstances I do not propose to move the suspension of the Rule

Mr. Buchanan

I would like to raise a humdrum matter regarding the Debate on the Regulations. The Leader of the House said he hoped that the White Paper would be issued tomorrow; may I ask him to expedite it, as the matter is of some importance to us in our localities? Those of us who go back to our Divisions want to consult some of the local people regarding the position.

Mr. Eden

I think I can give the hon. Member an undertaking that it will be available tomorrow. I am afraid I cannot do anything about it to-day.

Mr. Stokes

May I press the point I have just put? A very large number of Members want to speak to-day, and I would ask the Leader of the House, if he has not made up his mind, whether he will undertake to give further consideration at a later hour to the possibility of suspending the Rule?

Mr. Eden

I have had absolutely no approach on this subject, and I think the remedy is partly in the hands of the House. I do not think we should suspend the Rule. It is rather hard on those who have to stay here if the House sits late, and it is important that a matter like this should be debated in a fairly full House. If we go very late, we do not have a full House. The remedy therefore really lies in the direction of shorter speeches.

Miss Ward

May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he will emphasise when he is discussing with the Prime Minister the proposal of a Debate, that there are a good many of us who do not associate ourselves with the demand that has been made for a Debate of that character?

Mr. Lipson

Could not the Rule be suspended to-day for a limited period? The matter is of very great interest to hon. Members, and a very large number wish to speak.

Mr. Magnay

I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider this suggestion more fully and to note that his remarks about the length of speeches do not apply to back benchers.

Mr. Edmund Harvey

Would my right hon. Friend keep in mind transport difficulties, which will be greater on the next Sitting Day, and possibly grant an extra hour to-day?