HC Deb 14 October 1941 vol 374 cc1248-51
69. Mr. Maxton

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why he has refused permission to the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) to visit Ireland, for purposes arising out of his Parliamentary duties; and whether this is the general policy of the Government in regard to Members of Parliament?

The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peake)

I regret the necessity of hindering any persons from travelling to Ireland on legitimate business, but war conditions have made it essential to reduce the volume of traffic and to restrict permits to cases where the applicant is travelling on business, of national importance or is travelling to his home. The hon. Member for Shettleston made two applications on two differing grounds, but in neither case did the reasons which he gave for the visit enable my right hon. Friend to hold that his application could properly be granted.

Mr. Maxton

May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether it is a general rule that Members of Parliament cannot go to different parts of the British Isles to find out matters connected with their work in this House; is it a general rule that applies to everybody, or is it a particular rule applied to the hon. Member for Shettleston?

Mr. Peake

The general rule is as I have stated in my answer, namely, that the reason for the visit must be that it is of national importance or for domestic purposes. We apply exactly the same principle to a Member of Parliament as we do to members of the general public, and if any hon. Member obtains support for his proposed visit, if another Government Department is prepared to certify that it is in the national interest, his permit would, of course, be granted.

Sir H. Williams

Surely it is in the national interest that a Member of Parliament should have free access to any part of this country, without challenge in any way?

Sir I. Albery

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether all those Members of this House who have recently travelled to Ireland have been travelling in connection with matters of national importance?

Mr. Peake

Yes, Sir. They have all had the support of one or another of the Government Departments.

Mr. Maxton

If an hon. Member of this House wants to travel to Ireland on business which is not connected with a Government Department but which is connected with his rights and duties as a Member of this House, to which Department docs he apply for support for his visit?

Mr. Peake

The hon. Member for Shettleston put forward two applications on two different grounds. I do not know which of these two applications the hon. Member says is on the ground of national importance, and perhaps he would be good enough to inform me. I do not want to discuss the private affairs of the hon. Member for Shettleston in public, but if the hon. Member challenges me, I am quite prepared to give the grounds of the application and to state that they are not in the national interest.

Mr. Maxton

Was it not legitimate business for an hon. Member of this House to go to Northern and Southern Ireland to find out the circumstances which justified the detention of Mr. Cahir Healy, a member of the Ulster Parliament?

Mr. Peake

No, Sir, my right hon. Friend did not hold that it was in the national interest—

Mr. Maxton

But he has no right to say.

Mr. Peake

—for Members of Parliament to travel to Ireland to conduct private investigations into matters of this kind.

Sir H. Williams

Am I to understand from my hon. Friend that Ministers are now denying hon. Members the right of pursuing investigations as to the way in which Ministers are conducting their Departments?

Mr. Peake

The proper course for Mr. Healy to pursue would be to make an application to go before the Advisory Committee. The purpose of conducting private investigations into the circumstances affecting the detention of Mr. Healy does not justify a journey to Ireland.

Mr. Maxton

Do I understand the position to be that the Home Secretary imprisons a British citizen and then refuses to permit a Member of this House to investigate whether that imprisonment is legitimate or not?

Mr. Peake

It is quite obvious that we cannot make exceptions from these general rules in the cases of Members of Parliament.

Hon. Members

Why not?

Mr. Peake

If we were to permit the hon. Member for Shettleston to travel for this purpose, we should have to be equally prepared to allow any members of the general public to do so.

Hon. Members:

No.

Sir I. Albery

On a point of Order. I wish to give notice that at the earliest possible opportunity I intend to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

Mr. Hore-Belisha

May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether you have any power to protect the rights of Members of Parliament in this matter?

Mr. Speaker

On a question of this kind I have no such power.

Mr. Neil Maclean

On a point of principle, is it a fact that a Member of Parliament, if he is asked to make inquiries into a grievance by an individual who looks upon him as one who is likely to be useful in removing this grievance, is to be prevented from going to the particular place to find out from private inquiries there the justification of the individual making the complaint?

Sir W. Davison

Is it not a fact that this House vested in the Home Secretary action under Regulation I8B with judicial powers, and that it is not open to members of the public to inquire into his action unless the matter is raised by a Motion in this House?

Mr. Speaker

I certainly will not give a general Ruling on this question.