HC Deb 04 March 1941 vol 369 cc879-88
Mrs. Tate (Frome)

We live in days of such unparalleled peril that one would have no right to bring forward the interests of any section of the community, no matter how deep one's sympathy for that section, if it were not in the national interest. I think the agricultural industry throughout the country will have been greatly perturbed by the Home Secretary's announcement at Question Time today that it is now the Government's decision to put the clock forward by two hours this summer.

It being the hour appointed for the Interruption of Business, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

Question again proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Major Dugdale.]

Mrs. Tate

Nevertheless, although I believe that the health of this country depends upon a happy and flourishing agricultural industry, I would not dream of putting forward the interests of agriculture at such a time were it not that I believe that the welfare of every section of the community will be affected by the production of food. It is true that we shall never win this war unless we produce an adequate number of aeroplanes, tanks and ships, but it is equally certain that we shall not win this war unless we can adequately feed our people. Day by day it becomes abundantly clearer that the amount of food we can import will have to be drastically cut down, and that we must to a tremendous extent depend on what can be produced at home. I suggest that the production of food will not be assisted, indeed it may be retarded, by the Regulation which the Government intend to bring forward.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Lady, in raising this question, has placed me in some difficulty. I have to carry out the Standing Orders of this House, and Standing Order No. 9 states: In determining whether a discussion is out of order on the ground of anticipation, regard shall be had by Mr. Speaker to the probability of the matter anticipated being brought before the House within a reasonable time. Perhaps the Home Secretary could assist me in the matter. At Question time he made a statement on the subject, but I do not know when he will bring in the Regulation. It depends on that whether I can allow the Debate to proceed.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Herbert Morrison)

I informed the House at Question Time that it is proposed to adjust Summer Time as from 3rd May. In the circumstances I do not intend to lay the Regulation until approximately one month from the present day. That will, I think, allow the House a period during which a Prayer can be moved if it is so desired.

Mr. Speaker

Of course, one month seems to be rather a long period. But undoubtedly this raises a very important question, and it would perhaps be right to have it considered in this House sooner than in a month's time.

Mrs. Tate

I was putting forward one or two arguments to prove that this Regulation will have a harmful effect on the production of food. It has been constantly reiterated by the Government that one of the most important considerations is the maintenance of our milk supply. If the clock is put forward two hours, it will mean, in ordinary circumstances, that the farmer who normally milks his cows at four o'clock in the afternoon will be obliged to milk them by the sun at two o clock in the afternoon. That means that the cow has to be milked in the heat of the day when the milk supply is neither as full nor of as high a quality as it is at a later hour. Moreover, the quality is gravely affected, and anyone who has had experience of the dairy industry will know that it is one thing to affect the milk production of a cow, but it is quite another thing to bring the yield back to normal. In addition, there is the absolute impossibility of carrying on haymaking while the dew is still on the grass. It might be argued that the farmer and the agricultural workers might do the work at a later hour in the day, but that is not quite as simple as it sounds. The agricultural worker has a very strong objection to working hours different from those of his fellow workers. It is unreasonable that he should be expected to break off work at a totally different hour and have his recreation and entertainment at a different time.

It will be no easy matter to regulate that. I am confident that the sympathy of the Minister of Agriculture has been with the farmers on this question. I am certain that he has put forward as strong a case and fought for this as urgently as the farmers could wish, and, naturally, if it is proved that the war effort is assisted more certainly by this Regulation, then, grievous as it is to the fanning industry, they will, I know, fall in with it. But I would most urgently ask the Home Secretary, when he brings forward this Regulation, to take every possible step that he can to ensure that these very special difficulties, with regard to milk, which is so vital to the national health, with regard to the farm workers' hours and with regard to haymaking, shall be considered, and that every possible step will be taken to mitigate the difficulties under which the farmers will have to work.

Throughout the past winter it has made a very considerable difficulty to the farmer in threshing that the clock was put forward. It is impossible to thresh in the darkness, and it has meant the keeping-on of men at a late hour of the evening, which is very far from being in accordance with their wishes. We have only recently had given to us the milk prices for 1941–2. I am very much afraid, unless some concessions which we cannot yet quite imagine are made, the farmers' costs will be greatly increased by this Regulation, and, if that is the case, the prices for milk which the farmer found satisfactory when he first heard them will not be satisfactory under the new conditions. I am sure the Home Secretary will take that into consideration also. When you consider the interests of the farmers as against those of the industrialists, it is true to say that you are considering the interests of 1,000,000 men as against the interests of perhaps 14,000,000 or 15,000,000, but today you cannot look upon it in that way, for the interests of every single one of this community, perhaps 50,000,000, are vitally affected by food. The whole stamina of the nation may yet be the deciding factor in victory or defeat, and, if it is found that this step has a deleterious effect on the production of food, I most sincerely hope that those industrial interests which believe they are going to gain by this Regulation may realise, as they have not realised in the past, that their interests and farming interests are really one and the same, absolutely indivisible, not opposed to each other, as unhappily they have so often believed in the past they were.

Mr. Ellis Smith (Stoke)

I want to welcome the introduction of this Regulation on behalf of millions of industrial workers. For many years during several months of the year I hardly saw daylight. That position has become more intensified as the result of the spirit that prevails in industry at present. There are millions of men and women who are turning out early in the morning, working all day without seeing their homes and then working overtime at night. They are also working weekends. It is admitted by all who have given any thought to this problem that there is more need for relaxation now as a result of that background than ever there was in the history of industrial activity in this country. Therefore, on their behalf, I welcome this Regulation. In the months when the Home Secretary proposes to apply the extended daylight industrial workers will, after travelling many miles from their factories to their homes, be able to have some relaxation by spending a short time in their gardens, in their parks or on the bowling greens. I am sure that in industrial parts of the country this Regulation will receive every support.

I would like to draw the attention of the Home Secretary and the House to an important report which now appears in the Vote Office. It is the Annual Report of the Chief Inspector of Factories, in which a great tribute is paid to industrial workers for the way they have worked since the Dunkirk evacuation. The Chief Inspector says that the workers accepted all the conditions philosophically and with their characteristic determination to make the best of a bad job. I know that that statement is a fact, and the extended daylight during the summer will be very welcome to the workers. The report also states that a complete blackout by day had produced an atmosphere of depression, whether psychological or physiological. I know from my own experience and that of others that that is so. The workers having passed through two winters of this experience, it is more than ever necessary that in the coming summer they should be able to have a little more relaxation and fresh air so that they can recuperate. The Chief Inspector also calls attention to an ironical situation when he says that while the modern housing estates had taken the factory workers from the centres of towns to better surroundings, this had created a traffic problem in the blackout which had led to the prolongation of the working day and sapped the workers' energy to a considerable extent. This additional hour of daylight will help to alleviate the serious transport problem which the industrial centres have to contend with owing to the influx of thousands of people from other parts of the country.

Mr. H. Morrison

I am glad that you. Sir, have given an opportunity for this matter, arising out of the statement which I made at Question Time today, to be discussed. I would like to congratulate the hon. Lady the Member for Frome (Mrs. Tate) on the thoughtful and com- petent way in which she put the point of view of the agricultural community before the House. I think it is probable that on this matter the agricultural community may be in the minority so far as public opinion is concerned, but I would not argue that, solely because a body of opinion or body of interests is in a minority, their point of view must be disregarded. It is, indeed, the duty of Ministers to take into account minorities and not always to award the decision to majorities. I can assure the House that I have been most careful to take fully into account the interests of the agricultural community, both farmers and labourers, and so has the Government as a whole, in considering this matter. Frankly, the conclusion to which we have come is not based upon any dogmatic view but upon the view that the best interests of the nation and of the war effort will be served by the adoption of the policy which I announced at Question Time.

Let me put some of the advantages which will arise if what I may call double Summer Time is put into operation. It is a matter of the greatest importance to the nation's war effort that transport, particularly at the docks, shall move with all practicable speed. We are advised by the appropriate Departments that if additional daylight is available during what we may call working hours it is highly probable that the work of the docks will be speeded up and that ships will be able to make a quicker turnround. That is of the most vital importance, because the importing capacity of the ships will be proportionately increased. We think that additional overtime can be worked in daylight, and I feel it will be agreed that the more that work can be done in daylight hours the greater will be the speed at which it goes on. It will avoid, to some extent, the concentration of part of the work into blackout hours, and will enable dock workers to work on well into the later hours of the evening and still have the advantages of daylight.

As to traffic conditions, we are advised that the extra hour of daylight will ease the traffic problem. For instance, it will give a wider opportunity for diversifying and staggering hours than is possible in a more concentrated daylight period. The movement of freight trains will be facilitated. One of the most serious fac- tors causing congestion has been the slow movement of trains during "alerts" in the blackout hours. Moreover, there is great difficulty during the blackout in handling freight wagons at marshalling yards. Freight wagons are loaded at goods depots during the late afternoon and early evening. Wagons which are then moved from sheds to marshalling yards and assembled into trains will, we apprehend, be assembled and despatched with greater speed.

I want to state the case fairly, and it is true that if we have later hours of daylight in the evening, we get a later period of darkness in the morning. Of course, this is really all artificial, because we are playing about with the clock. We know we are playing about with the clock. With the average person, however, the darkness will appear to continue longer in the morning; but the additional hour of darkness in the morning will hardly affect the situation, because, among other reasons, movement in these transport operations does not generally start until between 7.30 and 8.30 a.m., and by that time the daylight hours will have commenced.

The extended daylight period will give us an opportunity to economise in the use of gas and electricity for lighting, which, in turn, will economise in the transportation of coal, and to that extent will enable more coal to be used for the domestic consumer, which will relieve the anxious mind of my hon. Friend the Secretary for Mines. In some cases it will enable us to work two shifts of employment in the daylight hours. I admit that travelling will probably have to be done during blackout hours. To get in two shifts during the daylight period seems to the Government to contain important possibilities of benefit in industrial production. The economic and industrial advantages which I have mentioned are quite apart from the general advantage to the morale and cheerfulness of the people, from their being able to enjoy a longer period of daylight. This fact appears to the Government to be important.

The disadvantages are mainly to agriculture. No Government would do their duty if they did not take fully into account any disadvantage to agriculture, at a time when food production is so vitally important. I assure the hon. Lady that I have called the particular attention of my colleagues to this point. The Minister of Agriculture naturally fully understands the position. If we have gone wrong from her point of view, I assure her that it is not because full weight was not given to the agricultural point of view. A summary of the case for agriculture would be very much on the lines of the argument which the hon. Lady has put forward, just as, in summarising the other case, I developed and recapitulated to some extent the speech made from the other side in support of our decision. We are well aware of the inconveniences which the existing daylight-saving arrangement has caused to farmers.

I recognise that this is the third blow that agriculture has received. There was the normal summer time; then, last winter, there was extended summer time, and now there is the proposed double summer time. I know that agriculture felt severely critical of the original summer time proposals and did not like their extension through the winter. It will like still less this additional hour during the summer period. I appreciate that fanners and workpeople will feel very deeply on the matter, and we appreciate also the spirit in which they have carried on under very great difficulties. We fully recognise the objections and the difficulties which an extension of summer time would cause in connection with farming operations at a time when food production is so vital. We are aware that, on a mixed farm, work starts with the milking—cows have not been trained, so far, to carry clocks and watches—and this work normally starts in the blackout. We are aware that work on the land cannot start until it is light and that haymaking and harvesting cannot begin until the dew is off the ground.

Those important material objections, put forward by agriculture, have been expressed by the National Farmers' Union, who have protested and dissented. Perhaps it is not inappropriate, or unfair to myself or to the hon. Lady, that I should read to the House a letter which I have received from the National Union of Agricultural Workers, asking the Government not to take the step which I announced this morning. The letter is signed, not by its General Secretary, Mr. Holmes, but by somebody else in his absence. It is dated 4th March, and contains the following words: I am receiving from all parts of the country letters of protest from my members who are viewing with alarm this proposal to put forward the clocks by another hour in the near future. They point out that agriculture cannot be run by the clock. It must be run by the sun, as all tillage operations and harvest operations are affected thereby. A cowman, for instance, who now goes to work at 5 a.m. by the clock, actually starts work at 4 a.m., and this new proposal means that he will have to start at 3 a.m. to get the milk to the train. Changing the hour will, of course, decrease the amount of milk obtained from the cows, which has already been reduced owing to feeding-stuffs restrictions, just at a time when we are being forced to rely more than ever upon milk as an item in our daily diet owing to a shortage of animal proteins. This alteration in the clock time will mean that operations will often be delayed in the mornings, and then in the evenings the workers will be required to stay very late at night, and yet no more actual production will be done than if the hours remained as they are. I want to be fair to both sides, and I thought it fair to the other side of the case that that letter should be read to the House. I have stated the case for and against, but the Government feel, having regard to these vital considerations of national transport, the docks, the essential factor of munitions production, and the maintenance of industrial production, that, notwithstanding the very great importance of the agricultural considerations, we ought, on balance, to make this extension. I would conclude by saying that if the agricultural community, or hon. Members in this House representing rural constituencies, have any proposals or suggestions to make whereby the Government can take action, by the adjustment of time tables and so on, which they think would ease the situation for the agricultural community, the door is wide open for consideration, and, in so far as we are able to do anything to ease the operation of this proposal, I can assure hon. Members that Ministers will be entirely sympathetic

Sir Joseph Lamb (Stone)

The hon. Lady has done a great service, not only to agriculture, but to the country, in giving to the Minister an opportunity to make the speech which he has made. This proposal will be a great hardship to the agricultural industry, but I would like to say that we appreciate the Minister's statement that he realises that difficulties are put in our way. I also appreciate that he has said that if it is found possible to make suggestions to him by which this difficulty and hardship to the industry can be remedied, he will give them favourable consideration.

Mr. Evelyn Walkden (Doncaster)

Could the right hon. Gentleman make a further announcement on behalf of shop workers, so that they shall not be robbed of any advantages which may accrue to them under the terms of the Order?

Mr. Morrison

I do not think that there is an intention because of this Order to make any different hours as regards shop closing hours. It is not proposed by me that we should extend the hours of opening of shops because of the adjustment of daylight hours.

Mr. Walkden

The right hon. Gentleman will bear in mind that the existing Order, which he himself made, expires a few weeks before the Order under discussion comes into operation.

Mr. Morrison

Yes, that is quite true, and it is proposed that an Order made similar to that last winter shall be made again. I do not think this will alter this situation.

Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.