BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. (Hansard, 19 June 1941)

§ Mr. Lees-Smith
May I ask the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to 825 make with regard to the course of the war, and also with regard to the forthcoming Business of the House?

§ The Prime Minister
I do not think that it would be convenient to-day for me to make a statement about the war. It is possible that when we next meet I may have something to say upon the very important operations which have been pursued with so much vigour in the Middle East.

§ Mr. Lees-Smith
With regard to the first Sitting Day, will the Prime Minister indicate what arrangements will be made for the Debate on shipping?

§ The Prime Minister
I have come to the conclusion, after careful reflection, that any Debate on the shipping situation ought to be in Private Session. [Hon. Members: "No."] I think that there might be serious danger to the public interests if the matter were discussed in public. If the Debate is in secret, I shall hope to be able to make a statement to the House. I should certainly not attempt to do so in public. I do not think I could do justice to the topic, every part of which is inter-related. I must remind the House that the Battle of the Atlantic is a continuous operation going on from day to day, and its seriousness has not by any means been removed 826 by anything that has occurred as the year has advanced. So I hope the House will be willing to accept the judgment of the Government upon the matter, at any rate until after we have discussed it.

§ Mr. Shinwell
May I beg my right hon. Friend to reconsider his decision? May I ask him to remind himself of the fact that already we have had two Debates on the shipping position in Secret Session, and there are doubts whether any fruitful results accrued? There is a strong feeling both in the House and, I believe, outside that on this occasion the Debate should be used for the purpose of removing disquiet in the public mind and at the same time to arouse a sense of urgency among the public in relation to the war situation. May I also ask my right hon. Friend whether he is aware that many conflicting and, indeed, alarming statements have been made by responsible statesmen—President Roosevelt, for example, with a full knowledge of the situation, and by the First Lord of the Admiralty and many others—and that it is desirable to remove this confusion which keeps the public very much in the dark? Finally, may I ask my right hon. Friend to reconsider his decision in view of the desire of hon. Members, while exercising the utmost discretion and affording no material comfort to the enemy in the course of the Debate, to use the occasion to assist the Government rather than to embarrass the Government's efforts; and for that purpose it would seem that, even if we are to be deprived of my right hon. Friend's eloquence on that occasion, it would be desirable in all the circumstances to have the Debate in public?

§ The Prime Minister
I cannot feel that any justice could be done to this subject by partial statements on behalf of the Government. I feel that in order to deal with it there must be comprehensive statements going to the root of matters. I am sure they cannot be made in public. I therefore feel that a Debate which was conducted merely as it were from particular, detached angles would not be helpful to the House or informative to the public. I think the advantage of our discussing the matter in Secret Session will be to enable the House to see whether or not the argument set forth by the Government is a correct one. I certainly feel 827 that it will be very difficult indeed to conduct the Debate in public. I have always taken the view, if the House wishes to make speeches on topics, that whenever possible and Business permits, the House should be given an opportunity to do so, but Government statements on this subject are extremely difficult to make, in fact impossible to make, except under the protection of a Secret Session.

Mr. ShinwelI
May I ask whether it is not desirable that on some occasion the House should have an opportunity of expressing itself irrespective of a Government statement, and whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware of the fact that all the facts and figures that are relevant to the shipping position, however disquieting, are to be found in official reports and in the shipbuilding Press, and therefore there is no question of disclosures which are likely to be embarrassing to the Government?

§ Mr. Maxton
I have a very open mind on the value of Secret as against Public Sessions, and I would readily agree that there should be a Secret Session Debate, although I agree with the hon. Member that the continued secrecy about shipping —no publicity about shipping—tends to arouse alarm in the country which I do not think, however serious it may be, need be as alarming as all that. I would readily agree to another Secret Session if I had a reasonable assurance that the Prime Minister's statement to-day about things that can be said in secret which cannot be said in public would be borne out by the facts; but to come here as we came to the Debate on the supply situation and then to read in the news papers the following day a statement, obviously issued by the Minister, which contained all the essentials—I cannot say any more; I am limited by my oath of secrecy —

§ Mr. Speaker
That is a matter which is now the subject of an inquiry by the Committee of Privileges.

§ Mr. Maxton
That is another reason why I cannot say any more. I think that the Government are not handling Secret Sessions as they ought to be handled unless there are genuine, full statements made. I can think of one or two things that we have not been told about—sub- 828 marine sinkings and so on. Then there are the steps taken to safeguard mercantile shipping, which have never been told in public so far as I know, and never printed publicly, of which we might be told here. There is also the amount of success achieved in protecting shipping. If we are to get only something along the lines of what we have had, it would be, I think, not worth the trouble of espying strangers.

§ Mr. Hore-Belisha
Would my right hon. Friend bear these considerations in mind? Of course, if he has reached the conclusion that it is advisable for him to make a statement in Secret Session, nobody could contest that, and it is proper that he should do so whenever he feels it to be desirable, but will he recall the effect that was created in the United States when we ceased to publish the shipping losses on a weekly basis and put them instead on a monthly basis? The utmost alarm was caused. It is most important to elicit the full co-operation of public opinion in the United States for further help from that country, if possible in convoy. That is clearly the view of the President of the United States, who has made a very strong statement upon shipping revealing the true facts with a view to carrying public opinion in his country. As most of the facts are known, is it not desirable that we should face them with candour and resolution? Further, would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that on the occasion not only of the Secret Session about the supply situation, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) has referred, but also the Secret Session on economic warfare, statements were made by Government Departments afterwards, which, of course, must have borne some correspondence to what was said in this House, and that it is very wrong that a partial and one-sided view should be given to the public by the Government stating a case through publicity officers while those who have a contribution to make in this House should have their remarks concealed by the demands of a Secret Session? It is principally for these reasons that I would ask my right hon. Friend, even if on this occasion he wishes to make his statement in secret, which we would all understand, that some means may be taken of showing what is the view of the House of Commons on this subject.

§ The Prime Minister
I think I must really ask the House to be advised by His Majesty's Government upon this matter. I could go into it in great detail when we are together privately. It would be a great pity if we were forced to conduct discussions on these most grave matters with the enemy listening, every word reaching them quite soon. No justice can be done to the arguments; there can be no real freedom in argument. A statement can easily be made and will be made from time to time by the Government. It is said that the statement would be partial and one-sided. I thought we were all rather on one side now, but if there are two opinions about that, I still trust that the Government will receive the support of the House in this matter. No decision is final. We can have our Debate and see what the conclusions are among ourselves, and perhaps some statement may be made in public afterwards, because that would be quite possible. I do not feel that any justice could be done to this topic by a public Debate at present. As to the desire expressed by the right hon. Gentleman opposite that we should give a greater stimulus to the shipbuilding and ship repairing effort, it might well be that a Debate of that kind might take place after the House is in possession of the real facts.

§ Mr. Shinwell
That is precisely what we want.

§ The Prime Minister
But it would be impossible to separate that from the general question of the Battle of the Atlantic.

§ Earl Winterton
On that point of procedure. May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is aware, when he says he must ask the House to accept the advice of the Government, that it is open to any Member—and it is an opportunity of which I shall certainly avail myself—on the Motion that strangers do withdraw to raise the whole question? I think it is in the public interest that it should be raised. I hope he does not suggest that it cannot be raised, because it is in Order to do so, and some of us —

§ Mr. Speaker
The Noble Lord states that he proposes to raise the question on the Motion that strangers do withdraw, but that is not a debatable Motion. If he wishes to raise the question, he must do so on the Question that the remainder of the Sitting be a Secret Session.

§ Earl Winterton
I beg to give the right hon. Gentleman notice that I shall raise the matter on the Question of the rest of the proceedings being in Secret Session. I shall raise the point with you, Mr. Speaker, whether there is anything to preclude the Press from publishing information contained in that Debate, since the House will not then have gone into Secret Session.

§ The Prime Minister
Nothing would be further from my wish than to deprive the noble Lord of any Parliamentary facilities of which he may desire to avail himself. On the contrary, I think we have achieved during this war and under this Government the greatest association of the representative institution with the Executive that has ever been attempted under such conditions. Personally, I labour constantly to secure the power, authority and prestige of the House of Commons. That shall always be my faithful effort and endeavour, because I think it would be a glorious thing if we came through this with all our Parliamentary faculties undiminished, nay, having, in fact, played a vital part in the struggle. I look upon the House as friends; we could not fight this through without them, and in that spirit I should wish this matter to be considered. If, after the Debate is over, when a new view may be taken on either side as to what should be done, the Noble Lord wishes to try conclusions with the Administration on any point, it may be a very convenient opportunity for seeing exactly who his friends and associates are.

§ Sir W. Davison
Is the Noble Lord aware that both the House of Commons and the country consider the judgment of the Prime Minister and the Government better than his?

§ Sir H. Williams
May I point out to the Prime Minister that many of us take the view that the main cure of some of the difficulties in connection with the shipping situation will come from publicity, and that without publicity the evils which exist and are known to many of us, will not be cured? That is why we think it vital to have a Debate on the shipping situation in public, even if the House of Commons is deprived of a brilliant speech by the right hon. Gentleman.

§ Commander Sir Archibald Southby
Would it be possible to have part of the Debate in public, so that Members who wish to bring forward points in public could do so, while the Prime Minister's statement was made, rightly, in secret?

§ The Prime Minister
That would be possible on a second day.

§ Mr. Buchanan
May I ask the Prime Minister a question upon a small matter of business? Some time ago the Secretary of State for Scotland announced that he proposed to bring in a Bill dealing with the rents of houses and other places that have been bombed. Could the right hon. Gentleman spare a moment to consult with the Secretary of State for Scotland on the urgency of this Bill and the need for bringing it in at an early moment, as it is a matter of great importance to Scotland?

§ The Prime Minister
I shall be very glad indeed to ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland what the position is about that matter.

§ Mr. Shinwell
As there appears to be some slight confusion about the matter which we have been discussing, may I put a further point? Is the Prime Minister basing his decision on the desire of the Government for a Debate on shipping, and is he aware that the Debate was not suggested by the Government nor was thereat any time any desire expressed by the Government to disclose to the House the position in regard to the Battle of the Atlantic and other matters? In fact, the request for the Debate came from this side of the House, and in view of the Government's reluctance to raise the matter, and the matter having emerged from discussions on this side, would the right hon. Gentleman not reconsider it in that light?

§ The Prime Minister
I have very carefully considered it, and I am sure that the kind of Debate that takes place in public would not be a Debate which would give a fair or complete presentation of the case, either to the House or to the country, and I am most anxious that the House should consider the matter, if it wishes to do so, in private,

§ Mr. Shinwell
Suppose the House decides net to have a Debate at all. The 832 request for the Debate came from a section of the House. Supposing that that section of the House decides that in the circumstances there is no advantage in having the Debate, what is the position? Will the Government persist in the Debate?

§ The Prime Minister
The resources of civilisation would not be exhausted. The matter having gone thus far, I should, myself, ask that the House should consider it.

§ Mr. A. Bevan
Will an early opportunity be given to the House to discuss the general question of production, particularly in view of the fact that the whole atmosphere is being poisoned by charges of absenteeism directed against workers and by statements made by responsible labour leaders about slackness in the workshops and mismanagement? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it would be in the public interest to have a Debate on this matter in public at the earliest possible moment, because, as I say, the whole atmosphere is now being seriously poisoned?

§ The Prime Minister
I think it would be a very good thing to have such a Debate, and certainly it should be in public, but I hope that everyone, on both sides of the argument, will keep his attention constantly fixed upon the object, namely, improved production, and that we shall not get into a fight between capital and labour or between employers and working classes, each beginning to throw things at the other in a metaphorical sense. I am sure that that would give an altogether false impression abroad as to the real purpose which unites us all.

§ Mr. Bevan
Is the Prime Minister aware that there is no desire on the part of anyone to have a Debate in the House of Commons about the relative responsibilities of capital and labour? We are all more anxious to have a Debate about the responsibilities of the Government.

§ The Prime Minister
Quite a good topic.

§ Mr. J. Griffiths
May I ask the Prime Minister whether, in the meantime, until such a Debate takes place, he will ask Members of the House to realise that working men who, when this Government 833 was formed, threw everything to the winds, and gave all to the effort, resent all these suggestions that they are slackers? They are not slackers; they are working hard for the nation.

§ Mr. Granville
With regard to the Debate on propaganda, as this affects a number of questions over which the Ministry of Information has no control, may we hope that it will be possible for a member of the War Cabinet to be present at that Debate?

§ The Prime Minister
I should think that would certainly be the case during the greater part of the Debate.

§ Mr. Gallacher
Arising out of the Prime Minister's remarks, and in connection with production and especially the production of coal, may I ask whether, in view of the fact that the coalowners refuse to treat the industry as a national industry and treat it as a county industry, it may not be necessary to boot the coalowners and boot them hard, in the course of that Debate?