BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. (Hansard, 10 June 1941)

§ Mr. Lees-Smith
May I ask the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement in regard to the course of Business at today's Sitting?

§ The Prime Minister
The Business already arranged has been altered. In view of the representations which were made to the Government requesting an early Debate on the fighting in Crete, we thought that it would meet the general convenience of the House to have that Debate to-day. The Debate on Civil Defence will, accordingly, take place on the second and third Sitting Days.

§ Mr. Shinwell
Can the Prime Minister say whether he has now given consideration to the request that an early Debate should be arranged on the shipping situation, and whether, having regard to the statement attributed to Mr. Menzies, that transportation is at the bottom of the recent trouble, he will expedite the arrangements and have it soon?

§ The Prime Minister
I think that that matter had better be discussed through the usual channels, but I see no reason why there should not be a discussion upon the subject.

§ Mr. Shinwell
Will the right hon. Gentleman also consider having such a Debate in public?

§ The Prime Minister
Of course we can have Debates either in public or in secret, but a very different range of discussion id open in public.

§ Mr. Shinwell
Does not the Prime Minister appreciate that we have already had two Debates On the shipping situation in Secret Session, and that it is desirable, in all the circumstances, that a Debate, however restricted, should be in public?

§ The Prime Minister
I am very much in the hands of the House whether the Debate is in public or in private, so long as the greatest discretion is observed, as it has been observed.

§ Sir I. Albery
Is my right hon. Friend aware that many back-benchers desire to take part in the Debate on the fighting in Crete in the hope that they may make some constructive suggestions and perhaps also some criticisms which may not be unuseful to the Government, but if only one day is allowed for the Debate, it will be impossible?

§ The Prime Minister
I am afraid that I am not able to give another day at this moment. After all, the House can revert to war topics at different periods, but if it would be convenient to the House, we should be quite ready to move the suspension of the Standing Order so that the Debate could go on for a further hour.

§ Sir Waldron Smithers
Can the Prime Minister state when a day will be available for a Debate on propaganda?

§ The Prime Minister
I am afraid that I could not answer that question without notice.

§ Commander Sir Archibald Southby
May I ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of his reply to my hon. Friend, he is going to move that the Rule be suspended to-day in order to enable the Debate to be extended; and, further, will he bear in mind that in the two days' Debate which took place on the fighting in Greece there were at least three Government speakers who took part, and that in the two days only 22 Members of the House had an opportunity of speaking?

§ Mr. Lees-Smith
Does the Prime Minister propose to open the Debate or to wind up?

§ The Prime Minister
I propose to wind up.

§ Sir A. Southby
Does my right hon. Friend propose to move the suspension of the Rule or not?

§ The Prime Minister
If my hon. and gallant Friend will restrain his impatience, I intend to move the suspension of the Rule. I would like to mention to the House that I had thought I might make a short statement on the progress of our armies in Syria, and I sent a special request that any information available should come to me here. Unhappily, it has not reached me at this moment, otherwise I would have put it in the possession of the House

§ Mr. Maxton
The Prime Minister, I gather, is proposing to close the Debate to-day. Are we to have from any other Minister of the Crown some precise information about what happened in Crete, and will that Minister be a Minister who has knowledge of the various aspects of the matter?

§ The Prime Minister
No, Sir; we were asked to provide facilities for Debate on this subject from various quarters of the House. His Majesty's Government would not themselves have thought that this was a convenient moment, or a convenient peg on which to hang such a Debate, but in deference to the views expressed to them—although different from our own—we have made the arrangements which the House desires to-enable any criticism or attacks which may be made on the Government to be delivered without my having exhausted my right of speaking. With regard to a statement by another Minister, the time is already limited, although we propose to extend it. As has been pointed out, a lot of time was taken up by Ministers in the other Debate.

§ Mr. Shinwell
If that is the intention of my right hon. Friend, will he agree that it is desirable that at the conclusion of the Debate, when he is winding up, he should not confine himself to replying to critics but should tell us something of what has happened?

§ The Prime Minister
I think the only way of replying to critics on this matter is to set their criticisms in the general framework of the operations which are proceeding.

§ Mr. A. Bevan
While it is very good Government strategy that the right hon. Gentleman should wind up the Debate, may I ask, in view of the fact that there is no Vote of Censure before the House, whether it would not assist the House of Commons to do its public duty much better if an official statement were made at the beginning of the Debate? Would not the procedure now proposed lead to a lot of acrimonious debating on small points rather than a dignified consideration of the whole position?

§ The Prime Minister
The Government have many difficulties to contend with, and the House has always allowed them —sometimes under protest but has 37 always, in fact, allowed them—to take charge of their methods of conducting their own defence and their own Debate.

§ Sir I. Albery
Arising out of the statement that the Government did not desire this Debate but that representations were made to the Prime Minister that the House required it, will the Prime Minister say from what source he received these representations? I, like many other Members of the House, was here last week and heard nothing whatever about it. Now we are informed that we are, against the Government's desire, to have a Debate.

§ The Prime Minister
It is quite true that when there are no organised forces of opposition it is difficult to ascertain exactly what are the wishes of the House. I have stated that our view was that a better opportunity might have been found, probably later in the month, to discuss this matter, but although His Majesty's Government may have this view, and undoubtedly have a majority, we deferred to the wishes of the minority sections of opinion in the House— [HON. MEMBERS: "Who are they?"] —and endeavoured, as far as possible, to meet their wishes, even when we ourselves did not agree with them. That is the way in which our business is conducted here. If, of course, I could have gone so far as to say that it was not in the public interest, I should have asked the House to support the Government in that view, but I think that the argument about not being in the public interest is one which has to be sparingly invoked; and I keep it for occasions when I am thoroughly convinced that such is the case.

§ Earl Winterton
Would my right hon. Friend inform us what were these minority channels through which a request was made for the Debate?

§ The Prime Minister
I received representations through the Government Whips, who had consulted various Members. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who were they?"] I believe the Parliamentary Labour party, among others, asked that there should be a Debate. I believe, also, that the Liberal party would have liked it, and I heard that there were also some Members of our own party—indeed, there has been some evidence of this to-day. We are always willing to meet Members' 38 wishes when that can be done without detriment to the public interest, and I, naturally, submitted.

§ Mr. Bevan
It is obvious that it is the general wish of the House to have a Debate, and it is obvious that there is a general desire in the country that there should be a Debate, but the Debate has, in fact, been decided upon, on the initiative of the Government. If the Debate had been arranged upon the initiative of any discernible section of the House, it could have been opened in an intelligent manner, but after the Debate has been decided upon by the Government, is it not in the public interest that an official statement should be made by a Government official at the opening? Surely our Parliamentary procedure in such circumstances can only be carried on decently in some such fashion. I beg the Prime Minister to consider whether he could not open the Debate, or whether some other responsible person could not put the House in possession of the facts at the outset?

§ Mr. Maxton
I am a member of the Opposition in this House, and I never asked for a Debate to-day. What the Government have said to me now is that they will have a Debate and extend the Sitting of the House for the purposes of the Debate. I do not know whether there is a demand in the House for a Debate or not, but I think there is a demand in the House and the country for some more knowledge of the whole thing than we had from the newspapers last week, when the House was not meeting. As far as I am concerned, it is possible that an ordinary, intelligent statement from the Government would satisfy myself and my hon. Friends, and I suggest that the Prime Minister should have one Minister or another to give us the information that the House and the country have a right to know before we consider going on further with the Debate.

§ Sir A. Southby
In view of the fact that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, in replying to another question about who asked for this Debate, appeared to indicate, by turning round in my direction, that I, perhaps, had been one of those who did so, may I put it on record that I had no knowledge of this Debate and did not ask for such a Debate at any time?

§ The Prime Minister
My hon. and gallant Friend may leave the court without a stain on his character. With regard to the other matter, I really feel that I must ask the House to support me and the Government in any arrangement which we think will be most convenient to the House.

§ Mr. Gallacher
On a point of Order. If there is a ragged and undirected Debate, and if, at the finish, the Prime Minister makes a statement containing matter of urgent national importance, shall we have an opportunity of debating that statement? Are we not entitled to such an opportunity?

§ Sir H. Morris-Jones
May I put a further point of Order? I understand that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is about to move that the House should extend its Sitting to-day by an hour. Some of us on these benches would like to extend the Sitting further [HON. MEMBERS: "Order"]. May I develop my point?

§ Mr. Speaker
I can save the hon. Member the trouble of developing his point further. As a matter of fact the Prime Minister could not move that the House should extend the Sitting by an hour without having given notice, but the right hon. Gentleman can move that the Rule be suspended indefinitely at this Sitting.