MINISTERS OF THE CROWN (EMERGENCY APPOINTMENTS) BILL. (Hansard, 1 September 1939)

§ Sir J. Simon
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
In time of war, it will probably be necessary to create new Government departments with Ministers in charge of them. Of course, the Crown, under the Prerogative, can appoint a further Minister or Ministers at any time without statutory authority, but if that were the way in which it was done, very grave inconveniences would arise, the first and most obvious of which is that such a Minister could not sit in the House of Commons, nor could his Parliamentary Undersecretary. Therefore, it is necessary to have legislation. There are other reasons of machinery which are illustrated by Clauses 2, 3, 4 and 5 of the Bill. The Act of 1919, which is referred to in subsection (3) of Clause 1, the House may remember, was the Act which provided that not more than three Ministers without portfolio might sit in the House of Commons; but we are not here contemplating Ministers without portfolio so much as Ministers holding an office and discharging a defined set of duties. Moreover, we want to make provision for an Under-Secretary as well as the Minister himself. The House will see that this is a necessary emergency Bill. Of course. it is expressed in the form that there is 213 power to appoint such Ministers. I invite the House to give the Bill its Second Reading, and to pass it among the emergency legislation.

§ Mr. Dalton
I rise only to say that we have no objection in principle to this Bill, although, of course, as to the persons appointed and as to how they perform their duties, the House will retain its right of criticism.

§ Mr. Mander
I wish to raise one question concerning Clause 1, sub-section (2). in this Sub-section, there is a reference to not more than one secretary in each Ministry shall sit as a member of that House at the same time. The word "secretary" is used rather loosely, but I presume that it means an Under-Secretary of State. I should like to know whether that is so. Does it mean a Parliamentary Secretary? I do not understand the wording of the first and second lines of the sub-section, where it is stated: The office of a Minister to whom this Act applies or of a secretary appointed by such a Minister. Surely this must mean that the reference to secretary is to the Parliamentary Secretary, because surely the Minister does not appoint his Under-Secretary. Surely the Prime Minister makes that appointment. It seems to me that there is something wrong with the wording of the subsection, and I should be obliged if the Chancellor would give an explanation.

§ Mr. Stephen
I wish to raise a point with regard to a matter which seems to be left a little bit vague. There does not seem to be anything in the Bill with regard to the remuneration which the Minister will receive in carrying on the office that is contemplated. I also wonder whether, if the Minister concerned becomes a Member of the Cabinet, the Act relating to Cabinet Ministers' salaries will apply. I think it would be as well if there were some clarification of the position with regard to the status of the Ministers who may be appointed under this Bill.

§ Sir J. Simon
I will deal with the points that have been raised as well as I can. With regard to the question put by the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr.), I think the language of 214 Sub-section (2) is quite correct. As hesurmised, the reference in line 15 to not more than one secretary refers really to what comes before, where the reference is to The office of a Minister to whom this Act applies or of a secretary appointed by such a Minister "; that is, what we usually call a Parliamentary Secretary. The hon. Member thought there was in the drafting or phraseology, something ambiguous. Of course it is true that it is the Prime Minister who really takes the responsibility of selecting his colleagues, whether in the Cabinet or in the Ministry, but Under-Secretaries are always described in our Statute law as "Secretaries appointed by the Minister" and in fact they are so appointed in the sense that the formal document is executed by the Minister. That does not mean, however, that anybody other than the Prime Minister of the day makes the choice. The hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) asked whether, if one of these Ministers was in the Cabinet, the Act of Parliament providing for a common standard salary for all Members of the Cabinet would apply to him. Certainly if the Minister was a Member of the Cabinet that would be the result. If he is not in the Cabinet Clause 3 of the Bill provides that he shall be paid a salary out of moneys provided by Parliament, and that salary would be settled by the Treasury and would come before the House in the course of the Estimates.

§ Mr. Boothby
I would like to remind the House that this Bill deals with a supremely important subject, namely, the executive instrument in the event of war. I hope my right hon. Friend will not lose sight of the fact that a great many people notably the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Amery), are firmly convinced that before long it will be necesary to set up something in the nature of a War Cabinet, consisting of a limited number of individuals, certain of whom will hold very high executive offices, and perhaps one or two Ministers without Portfolio. In addition there may have to be a Council of Ministers, or something of that kind, to meet from time to time to confirm decisions reached by the Executive Cabinet. I do not think the House would like to pass 215 this Measure without an expression of the view that some kind of executive instrument may have to be devised by the Government in order to carry through the decisions which will be necessary from day to day, and even from hour to hour, in the next few weeks. I am sure the Government do not mean the House to take from this Measure that exactly the same executive instrument as that which we have at present, is going to be used or that anything which we pass to-night will preclude the setting up, if the Prime Minister thinks it desirable, of some kind of War Cabinet such as we had during the last War.