HC Deb 23 November 1939 vol 353 cc1397-401
64. Captain Ramsay

asked the Home Secretary whether he will investigate the charges of Mr. G. E. Thomas, that, while detained at Wandsworth Prison, he was kept for 25 days in a cell lit only by artificial light; that his sheets were not changed for seven weeks; that his cell was verminous; and that his complaint was disregarded?

Sir J. Anderson

The windows on the lower floors of this prison are protected by sandbags, and consequently at such times of the day as prisoners are in their cells artificial light has to be used. This prisoner was—in accordance with practice —allowed out of his cell during the working hours. The records show that 18 days after his admission he applied for a change of sheets. It was not possible to comply with his request at once (the emergency arrangements made in September with regard to the prison population had thrown an extra strain on the prison laundry) but his request was granted as soon as possible. He made no complaint that his cell was verminous and no confirmation can be found of this suggestion. He sent several communications to me while he was in prison and in these communications he made no complaints about his treatment.

Captain Ramsay

May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is aware, as there are several witnesses to show, that these prisoners were kept in these ground floor basement cells with no light for three weeks and a 'few days preceding their appearance before the tribunal and thereafter placed in cells which had proper ventilation and daylight; and was this not likely to cause a breakdown in their morale; and will he assure the House that prisoners in future shall be given proper daylight all the time they are in prison?

Sir J. Anderson

There is absolutely no foundation for that statement. I made careful inquiry. There were a large number of prisoners in the same position as this prisoner, and they had to be, in the circumstances prevailing, accommodated on that particular floor where all the cell windows were sandbagged. There was no ground whatever for suggesting that any attempt was made to single out these men for exceptionally hard treatment.

Mr. Ammon

Is there any charge against the Home Office or any other Department?

Captain Ramsay

Will my right hon. Friend consider whether he will be prepared to have an inquiry into—

Mr. Speaker rose

—

Mr. McGovern

May I ask—

Mr. Speaker

There are a large number of questions on the Order Paper.

Mr. McGovern

Surely, as there are three questions here, it is cutting it very short.

65. Captain Ramsay

asked the Home Secretary for what reasons Mr. G. E. Thomas was detained in prison by an order signed by him under Regulation 18b of the Defence Regulations, 1939, from 1st September to 27th October; and for what reasons he was released?

Sir J. Anderson

On the outbreak of war my predecessor in office made an Order under the Defence Regulations for this man's detention on security grounds. His case was investigated by the advisory committee, to whom he had made objections: and, having reviewed the case in the light of the committee's report, I decided that he might be released subject to certain restrictions. The detention order was, therefore, revoked, and a restriction order substituted.

Captain Ramsay

Having personal evidence only yesterday of the methods whereby people in responsible positions may be supplied with bogus information purporting to be evidence, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether the evidence against this man was taken on hearsay or whether there were witnesses when the tribunal was hearing the case, and was the man allowed to call any witnesses in his defence?

Sir J. Anderson

I cannot answer all these detailed questions without notice, but I considered very carefully the very long and detailed report of the advisory committee. I am satisfied that they went into the matter with very great care, and they came to the conclusion that the man might safely be released, subject to certain restrictions which they recommended, and I made an Order consequent on their recommendations.

Captain Ramsay

Is it not permissible to ensure that witnesses be called in these cases?

Sir J. Anderson

They may be.

66. Captain Ramsay

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that after two appearances before the advisory committee investigating the cases of prisoners detained under Regulation 186 of the Defence Regulations, 1939, on 25th and 26th September, Mr. G. E. Thomas, on return to Wandsworth Prison, was on each occasion detained for five hours in an apartment measuring approximately four feet by three feet, permitting him just room to sit down or stand up, with a grill and light over his head; and for what purpose and for what reason Mr. Thomas was maltreated in this manner?

Sir J. Anderson

When a person is brought back to a prison after being out of the prison for production before a court or for any other similar reason, it is the uniform practice that he: shall, before going to his cell, pass through the reception office so that any property he has with him may be checked and that the medical officer may see him. While prisoners are waiting to be seen by the medical officer they are accommodated in apartments such as are described in the question and are given papers and books to read. On one of the days in question there were 66 prisoners who had to be dealt with in accordance with this procedure, and it is possible that some of them were kept waiting for two or three hours. There was no differentiation between the treatment of this prisoner and of all other persons admitted to the prison.

Captain Ramsay

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are at least three other witnesses who are prepared to say that they were put into these small cells for over four hours, and that one man was kept in such a cell for six hours; and will he see that in future people are not confined in this kind of space because it may, especially in any cases of persons who suffer from claustrophobia, have a serious effect upon their health and morale?

Sir J. Anderson

I think that that really is a matter for the medical officer of the prison. As I have explained, the circumstances were exceptional at the time, and 66 prisoners had to be seen by the medical officer, and undoubtedly mere may have been undue inconvenience.

Mr. McGovern

Is it true that this man was confined in a space four feet by three feet for three hours?

Mr. Dingle Foot

Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that persons who are detained under regulations will be treated at least as well as remand prisoners if they have committed no crime, and that they will not in any case be treated as though they were convicted prisoners?

Sir J. Anderson

At the prison in question there are, I think, 73 admittedly small compartments which are used for reception purposes. Of the 66 prisoners who had to be passed through this procedure on one of the days in question, more than 30 were remand prisoners, and it is tlie intention that persons dealt with under Regulation 186 should have treatment in all respects at least as favourable as that accorded to unconvicted persons?

Mr. McGovern

As to the point I put about four feet by three feet, is that true, because if it is true, it is a damn scandal no matter whether he is Fascist or Communist?

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member must not make an observation of that character in this House.