§ 24. Miss Wilkinsonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will take steps to prevent the sale of British ships to countries likely to be involved in hostilities against this country; and 1682 whether he can now state if companies who have thus sold ships will be eligible to rank for grant under the provisions of the shipping subsidy?
31. Sir Nairne Stewart Sandemanasked the President of the Board of Trade what negotiations at present are going on with foreign countries for the sale to them of British ships; and what steps he is taking to stop these, pending the introduction of legislation?
§ Mr. StanleyLegislation will be introduced as soon as possible to require that any vessels which owners wish to scrap or sell abroad shall be offered to the Government in connection with the scheme for a reserve of tonnage. At present the Board of Trade have no power to require this, but, as has been previously stated in the House, in existing circumstances the Board prefer that ships should not be sold abroad; and the shipowners' organisations have circularised shipowners asking them to inform my Department, in good time before the completion of the transaction, of any proposal to dispose of United Kingdom tonnage to foreign ownership. I am considering the possibility of asking Parliament to give my Department the widest discretion in dealing with applications for grants for shipbuilding, and I shall keep a careful record of any sales abroad which may be made and of the circumstances connected with them.
§ Mr. StanleyIn answer to the circular I have been informed of certain proposals.
§ Miss WilkinsonMay it be taken as a warning to shipowners that in the interim period, before the legislation can be got through this House, the Minister will view with very grave concern any such steps?
§ Mr. StanleyI have already made it clear that we prefer that these ships should not be sold. We asked shipowners to hold them up pending the establishment of the reserve of tonnage. I am going to ask Parliament to give me a wide discretion in dealing with applications for shipbuilding facilities, and I feel that, if discrimination has to be made, and if, owing to the number of applications, a choice has to be made between various applications, preference 1683 should be given to those shipowners who, no doubt at considerable inconvenience and some economic loss, have followed the request of the Board of Trade and held up their ships pending the passing of the legislation.
§ Mr. StanleyI am pushing it forward as rapidly as possible, but there are a number of difficult matters to be dealt with.
§ Sir Joseph LambDoes my right hon. Friend propose that the legislation should be made retrospective?
§ Mr. StanleyI considered that point, but the proposals I shall lay before Parliament will place statutory obligations on the shipowners to offer their ships, and those obligations will be accompanied by penalty provisions involving prosecution for a criminal offence. I do not think there is any precedent for introducing a new criminal offence and making it retrospective. It would be a very bad precedent.
§ Mr. Benjamin SmithWould it not be better if, instead of asking for discretion from this House, the right hon. Gentleman made it clear that no assistance would be granted to any shipowner who disposed of ships abroad after the Board of Trade's request?
§ Mr. StanleyI should prefer to be in a position to consider each individual case in the light of the circumstances in which the disposal was made.
§ Lieut.-Commander FletcherWere any of the ships that were sold abroad of a type which could be armed and used for offensive purposes in the event of war?
§ 27. Mr. Loganasked the President of the Board of Trade how many Merseyside ships were sold to Japan prior to their attack upon China; who negotiated the sale, and whether, to relieve public apprehension, he will take steps to see that such concerns be noted, with a view to seeing that they are debarred from benefiting under the proposed shipping subsidy?
§ Mr. StanleySo far as my information shows, during the period from 1st 1684 January, 1937, to the commencement of the Sino-Japanese conflict, one ship registered at a port in the Merseyside area was transferred to the Japanese flag. That vessel—the steamship "Ionic" —was sold by her owners, the Oceanic Steam Navigation Company, Limited, to Japanese owners for breaking up. I cannot accept the suggestion made in the last part of the question.
§ Mr. LoganCan I take it that it is the intention of the right hon. Gentleman, in view of the national emergency, to put an end to this kind of thing altogether?
§ Mr. StanleyI cannot understand what kind of thing. Two years ago, in the normal course of business, one ship was sold to the Japanese for the purpose of scrapping. Of course, under the proposed new legislation such a ship would have to be offered first to the British Government.
§ Mr. LoganThe purpose of both these questions, numbers 26 and 27, is to see that we get British trade done in our own country and not given to foreigners, and that our ships are not sold to foreigners.
§ 29. Mr. Dobbieasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has any information in relation to the foreign ships trading between the Argentine, this country and the Continent, their ownership and the length of time in the possession of their present owners; how many of them have been sold by British owners instead of being broken up in British yards; and are such owners who sell these ships eligible for grants under the Tramp Shipping Subsidy Act when building new ships?
§ Mr. StanleyAs indicated in the reply given to the hon. Member on 25th April, the information asked for in the first part of the question is not available. As regards the last part of the question, all applications under the schemes announced for the assistance of British shipping will be dealt with in accordance with the conditions which will be laid down in respect of those schemes.
§ 32. Commander Marsdenasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that purchases of ships from Great Britain by German firms are taking place; that an 11,000 ton steamer has 1685 been bought by German interests for £34,500, and that negotiations are in progress for the purchase of other ships on the London market; whether he has approved of these sales; who are the owners of the ships concerned; and will he ensure that they shall not benefit under the proposed shipping subsidy?
§ Mr. StanleyYes, Sir, but I am unable to identify the sale of a British ship of this description. As regards the remainder of the question, I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to replies already given to previous questions to-day.
§ Commander MarsdenWhile thanking my right hon. Friend for his ample replies, may I ask whether he would consider publishing the names of the owners who have disposed of their ships contrary to the desire of the Board of Trade, and against the public interest?
§ Mr. StanleyI have been asked that question before.
§ Mr. ShinwellCan the right hon. Gentleman indicate what will be the position when British shipowners sell their vessels to countries other than Germany, and find subsequently that these vessels are transferred to Germany?
§ 36. Mr. Robert Gibsonasked the President of the Board of Trade how many of the 143 British ships of 422,000 gross tonnage transferred to foreign flags on sale to foreign owners in 1936 have been re-transferred since, and what is the gross tonnage of the ships so re- transferred; and what are the corresponding figures for the 222 ships of 666,500 gross tonnage, and 149 ships of 395,000 gross tonnage so transferred in the years 1937 and 1938, respectively?
§ Mr. StanleyI regret that I am not in a position to supply this information.
§ Mr. GibsonAs the amount of shipping transferred from the British Flag during the three years in question is nearly 1,500,000 tons gross, can the right hon. Gentleman say how long it will take under the Government's new arrangements to replace this shipping by new shipping?
§ 37. Colonel Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade the circumstances under which the "Essex Envoy" has been sold to Germany; on what date the 1686 transaction was completed; the names of the company making the sale and its directors; and whether the ship was offered to the British Government prior to the transaction being consummated?
§ Mr. StanleyThe British register of this ship was closed on 24th April on sale to German buyers. The ship was owned by the Essex Line, Limited, the directors of which are Mr. H. Meldrum and Mr. C. E. Swinson. The company were informed that although the Board of Trade had no power to prevent the sale, the Board preferred, in present circumstances, that ships should not be sold to foreign buyers.
§ Mr. LoftusWould my right hon. Friend consider immediately putting a heavy export duty on the sales of these ships?
§ Mr. StanleyI have already explained, in answer to a previous question, what my intentions are to deal with this situation.
§ Mr. N. MacleanSince the right hon. Gentleman has been good enough to offer to furnish the names of the owners of this ship, will he also endeavour to furnish the names of the ships asked for in previous questions?
§ Mr. J. MorganCan we have an assurance that the Lord President of the Council is not involved in any such transactions?