§ 3. Mr. Bellengerasked the Prime Minister what is the delay in assessing the cost of the damage to His Majesty's ship "Hunter" and presenting a claim to the Spanish Government in view of the fact that repairs to this ship were completed over six months ago?
§ Mr. ButlerThe cost of the damage to His Majesty's ship "Hunter" has now been assessed and a claim will be presented to the Spanish Government for the sum in question, in accordance with the usual procedure.
§ 13 Mr. Noel-Bakerasked the Prime Minister (1) whether His Majesty's Government have made representations to Signor Mussolini concerning the breach of the Anglo-Italian Agreement involved in the leaving of Italian armaments in Spain after the termination of the war;
- (2) how many German and Italian troops and military technicians still remain in Spain;
- (3)how many Italian aircraft, tanks, and guns have been left in Spain; and whether these arms are now manned by Spanish personnel?
§ 16. Sir Percy Harrisasked the Prime Minister whether he can now state the number of Italian troops still in Spain; how many Italian aeroplanes have been left in that country; and whether these aeroplanes are manned by Italian pilots?
§ 19. Mr. W. Robertsasked the Prime Minister whether there are any Italian aeroplanes and pilots in either Majorca or Iviza?
22. Mr. Davidsonasked the Prime Minister whether he has any information as to the amount of war material, formerly belonging to the Italian and German forces in Spain, which has been sold to General Franco; and in what form has payment for such war material been made?
§ The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain)His Majesty's Government have given serious consideration to the issues raised in these questions. I would first remind the House that the Non-intervention Agreement lapsed on 20th April, and that, therefore, there is no provision in any international instrument or undertaking to prevent any Government from now supplying war material to the Spanish Government.
As the House was informed on Monday some 22,000 Italian and 6,000 German troops have now left Spain. These figures represent the great majority of the foreign troops recently serving there. The Italian air forces at Majorca are similarly being reduced; a number of pilots have already left, and the remainder are expected to leave shortly. All Germans connected with the air base in that island have left except two.
Quantities of war material have also been evacuated from Spain, including much aircraft material from Majorca. But a considerable amount of material, of which I cannot give exact figures, has been disposed of to the Spanish Government, including aircraft of Italian origin at Majorca. Arrangements are being made for these to be taken over by Spanish personnel. Full information is not available as to the form in which payment for material transferred is to be made.
The House will recall that the main object of the exchange of Notes constituting Annex XI of the Anglo-Italian Agreement was to ensure against a possibility (as to which fears had been expressed) that at the end of the war the Spanish Government might be induced to afford bases where quantities of war material might remain under Italian military control. During the course of the negotiations preceding the signature of the Anglo-Italian Agreement, mention was made of the possibility of material being sold or given away after the end of the civil war. But it was not against this eventuality that His Majesty's 393 Government especially desired to guard, and information available shows that the main objective to which I have referred has been achieved with the withdrawal of Italian troops and war material still in Italian hands.
Taking all these circumstances into account, His Majesty's Government do not propose to make representations to the Italian Government unless the situation should be materially altered by any new development.
§ Mr. Noel-BakerMay we interpret the Prime Minister's answer as meaning that, in the view of the Government, there has been no breach of the Anglo-Italian Agreement, which provided that all Italian war material should be withdrawn?
§ The Prime MinisterYes, I think we must accept that interpretation, that there has been no breach of the Anglo-Italian Agreement.
§ Mr. Arthur GreenwoodIs it not the case that the right hon. Gentleman himself said in this House that there would be a withdrawal both of men and of material, and apparently some arrangement was made prior to the final statement which was made publicly? Is not this really a breach of an undertaking given to this House?
§ The Prime MinisterThe answer which I gave to a question addressed to me, to which I think the right hon. Gentleman is referring, was made in good faith, and I think that the misunderstanding which perhaps occurred was due to my not appreciating what was perhaps in the mind of the hon. Member who asked me the question. What I had in mind was the consideration which I have described in my original answer this afternoon, namely, that we wished to be certain, in making the Anglo-Italian Agreement, that at the end of the war there was not a quantity of war material left in Spain under Italian control. That has been achieved. But it is true, and it is only fair to the Italian Government to make it clear', that, at the time the negotiations were proceeding, mention was made by the Italian Foreign Minister of the possibility that some material might be either sold or given to the Spanish Government. That did not appear to the Government at the time, and it does not appear now, to be of material importance as compared with other considerations.
§ Mr. GreenwoodMay I put it to the Prime Minister that, these considerations having been in the mind of the Government, and having been put by the Italian Government, this House was definitely misled?
§ The Prime MinisterIt was not deliberately misled, at any rate; but it is quite possible that, I having one set of considerations in my mind, and hon. Members having another, there was some misunderstanding.
§ Mr. Noel-BakerCan the right hon. Gentleman tell us how many Italian and German troops remain, and how much armament; and is it not the duty of the Italian Government, under the agreement for the exchange of military information, to tell us how much armament and how many men remain?
§ The Prime MinisterWith regard to men, I have already explained that the numbers are now comparatively small, and that those who remain are in process of leaving. With regard to war material, I have already explained fully what the situation is.
Mr. Lloyd GeorgeMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether his answer will also be applicable to the German and Italian heavy guns which are planted on the Straits of Gibraltar and which would have the harbour of Gibraltar under their control in the event of war?
§ The Prime MinisterIt is quite obvious, I think, that the Spanish Government can now purchase, if they like and if they are able, heavy guns from any country which can supply them, and can mount them where they please.
Mr. Lloyd GeorgeThis is not a question of purchase of guns from Germany or from Italy. These are guns which were placed there before the civil war was over, and were placed there in contravention of the agreement which had been entered into by the four Powers who belonged to the Non-intervention Committee. These guns are left there in the emplacements where they were put during the war. I certainly was one of those who understood that the Prime Minister had undertaken to see that all this material was withdrawn. Will he protest against the non-withdrawal of these guns, which menace our position in the Straits of Gibraltar?
§ The Prime MinisterI must point out that the question which the right hon. Gentleman has just addressed to me is not the question which was on the Paper and which I have answered. It relates to an entirely different set of circumstances. If he will be good enough to put his question down, I will give him an answer.
§ Sir Archibald SinclairThe Prime Minister has said that it does not seem to him to be a matter of vital importance to this country that all this material should be left behind in Spain. Is he quite certain that the French Government take the same view?
§ The Prime MinisterI have no reason to suppose that they do not.
§ Mr. GreenwoodHaving now consented to this sale, or gift, of arms to Spain, will the Prime Minister make inquiries, and inform the House subsequently as to what amount of war material is now being given to Franco's Government, or sold to them?
§ The Prime MinisterI have no right to ask the Spanish Government such a question, but I will consider it.
§ Mr. PrittArising out of the statement that the Spanish Government are free to maintain any heavy artillery around Gibraltar, is it not a fact that the Spanish Government are bound by treaty not to fortify the heights around Gibraltar, and has not every Spanish Government until this one kept that treaty?
§ The Prime MinisterThat is not the question that was on the Paper. If a question is put to me on the subject, I will give a complete answer.
§ Mr. BennHas the Prime Minister not said that the Spanish Government have the right to mount guns around Gibraltar, whereas we understood that there was this treaty?
Mr. DavidsonOn a point of Order. Is it not the custom to give those Members who place questions on the Order 396 Paper the first opportunity of asking supplementaries arising out of those questions?
§ Mr. MagnayFurther to that point of Order. Is the House to understand that only those on the opposite side of the House are allowed to put supplementaries?
Mr. Deputy-SpeakerI did not observe that the hon. Member was one of those whose questions were being answered at the same time. Under the circumstances if he desires to put a supplementary which has not already been put, I will allow him to do so.
Mr. DavidsonIn view of the fact that the Government have no information as to how or what payment was made for this war material, do they consider that allegiance to the Italian Government is the form of payment that General Franco is making? It is a very important question, and may I ask if that is the opinion of the Government?
§ The Prime MinisterNo, Sir.
§ 17. Sir P. Harrisasked the Prime Minister whether he has any recent information as to the extent to which Ceuta has been fortified; what are the calibre and nationality of the guns; and whether any other part of the adjacent coast has been fortified?
§ Mr. ButlerConsiderable information is in the possession of His Majesty's Government on the subject of the fortification of Ceuta and certain adjacent parts of the coast, the extent of which it would not be in the public interest to divulge. The calibre and country of origin of the guns are various.
Mr. Lloyd GeorgeWhen I put a question on this point just now, I was told that that was not the question on the Paper. I agree. But here is the very point being raised by my hon. Friend. I ask again whether these guns, having been put there during the time the Non intervention Agreement was in force, ought to have been returned to Germany and Italy, in accordance with the arrangement made by the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister of Italy?
§ Mr. ButlerI quite appreciate the anxiety of the right hon. Gentleman—
§ Mr. ButlerI agree that the anxiety is natural, but I think that the special circumstances which arise there have to be taken into consideration. I have said that the countries of origin of the guns are various.
§ Sir P. HarrisIs it not a fact that many of these big guns were sent to Ceuta in direct contravention of the Non-intervention Agreement, and, that being so, have we not a special status to protest about their being there?
§ Mr. ButlerThe Non-intervention Agreement has now lapsed. We are dealing here with an area distinct from the Spanish mainland, and with problems of its own.
§ Sir A. SinclairIs this distinction which the right hon. Gentleman seems to draw between the Spanish mainland and the Spanish territories to be found in the Anglo-Italian Agreement? Does not the Agreement say that all troops and material are to be withdrawn from all Spanish territories?
§ Mr. ButlerThere are considerations somewhat more complicated than the right hon. Gentleman makes out. I have not the exact date of the mounting of these guns in this particular place, and I do not draw any distinction over the Non-intervention Agreement between Ceuta and the Spanish mainland.
§ 18. Mr. W. Robertsasked the Prime Minister whether he has any information as to the way in which General Franco is carrying out the assurance given by him to His Majesty's Government, on 22nd February, to the effect that no special tribunals would be set up to try political opponents, nor would the death penalty be enforced for actions which were not recognised as crimes in legislation in force before July, 1936?
§ Mr. ButlerSpecial tribunals have been set up to try cases referred to them under the Law of Political Responsibilities, but the terms of the assurance given are ambiguous and do not exclude the possibility of such tribunals being set up. My noble Friend awaits a further report from His Majesty's Ambassador as to 398 how the terms of the law are being interpreted. As far as Madrid is concerned, only convicted murderers have been sentenced to death, and only 10 sentences had, up to the end of April, been carried out.
§ Mr. RobertsIs it not a fact that in a telegram sent to the Prime Minister on, I think, 22nd February, an assurance was specifically given that no special tribunals would be set up? Further, is the Under-Secretary aware that I have the names of far more than 10 people who have been shot— journalists, school teachers and others— for crimes which do not include murder?
§ Mr. ButlerOn the subject of special tribunals, our own legal opinion shows us that the assurance given is somewhat ambiguous. That is why my noble Friend called for a further report from our Ambassador to the Spanish Government. We are awaiting the report as to how the terms of the law are being interpreted. When we receive such a report I shall be able to give more details.
§ Mr. Neil MacleanIf these matters are, as the Under-Secretary states, ambiguous, why do not the Government do something to have the ambiguity cleared up?
§ Mr. ButlerIf the hon. Member had listened to the answer he would have realised that that is precisely what we are doing. My noble Friend is asking for further information. I would like to add that our information is that the courts are proceeding with moderation.
§ Mr. W. RobertsAre the assurances which were given of any value whatever?
§ 20. Mr. W. Robertsasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of recent admissions by official German and Italian speakers as to the extent of their intervention in the Spanish war and as to the early date at which such intervention began, and in view of the many denials of all knowledge of such intervention, he will consider reorganising the sources of information of the British Government?
§ Mr. ButlerNo, Sir. His Majesty's Government were well aware, and have often stated, that intervention in the Spanish war was, unfortunately, taking place on both sides.
§ Mr. RobertsOn many occasions, to questions asked by myself and other hon. Members, the Government have given the answer that they had no knowledge of such intervention. In view of that, does the matter not call for some further consideration?
§ Mr. AsshetonIs not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the whole country is profoundly grateful to the Government for keeping us out of the Spanish War?
21. Mr. J. J. Davidsonasked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government have received any information from the League of Nations with regard to Spain's continuance or otherwise of membership of the League?
§ Mr. ButlerThe Secretary-General of the League of Nations communicated to the Members of the League on 9th May a telegram from the Spanish Government notifying the withdrawal of Spain from the League in accordance with Article 1, paragraph 3, of the Covenant.
Mr. DavidsonDo the Government consider this withdrawal a strengthening of the peace forces of the world, and were the Government aware of this withdrawal when they sent our Ambassador to the victory parade in Madrid.
§ Mr. ButlerI regard it as my duty to answer the question on the Paper, and I have given the hon. Member and the House a full answer. I cannot undertake to widen the nature of the answer.
23. Mr. Davidsonasked the Prime Minister what representations have been made recently to General Franco with regard to His Majesty's Government's claims for compensation for the loss of British lives and British ships during the Spanish civil war?
§ Mr. ButlerThese claims are being filed and examined by the Foreign Office, and those found valid will be presented to the Spanish Government as soon as possible in accordance with the normal procedure.
Mr. DavidsonI would have thought that the Prime Minister would have replied to this question, which is of major importance to the British people.
Mr. DavidsonWill the Government place a time limit on the settlement of these compensation claims, in view of the fact that the Government were entirely responsible for the murder of these British seamen?