HC Deb 26 July 1939 vol 350 cc1497-502

Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

4.5 P.m.

Mr. Ammon

I think the Committee will agree that this is a very remarkable addition to our legislation on education, and still more striking as an instance of the harmonising of sectarian differences. Perhaps it would not be a waste of time if some comment were made on the Bill before we pass it into law. The striking thing is that here we have a Bill that has come from a part of the country which has been notorious for sectarian differences, and that it has now arrived at a measure of agreement which everyone will appreciate. But we are mindful that the 1936 Act, which was passed for the purpose of harmonising and bringing together these various elements has, I understand, been the cause of one or two elections in that city, elections which were not harmoniously conducted, and naturally, when this Bill came before the Select Committee the Committee were a bit concerned as to exactly where was the catch in the Bill, and witnesses were questioned as to what had given rise to this Bill instead of the carrying out of the agreement under the 1936 Act.

Here, harmoniously settled, is a question that in the past has not only given rise to violent dissension but has sometimes resulted in bloodshed. Naturally questions were put to the witnesses, because the Select Committee were a little sceptical as to whether or not, after the long record of sectarian differences with regard to the schools, a settlement could be reached in the manner set forth in the Bill, and the only answer we could get was that there undoubtedly had been a change of heart. What that means one does not quite know, unless it is to be interpreted as meaning that the rival factions have decided to forget their religious differences and to act as Christians, in which case we have the Bill before us to-day. When we had given in evidence the names of the advisory committee representative of the different sections it was felt that something like an anticlimax had been reached. Everyone welcomes this agreement and this condition of affairs in Liverpool. But I think it would be as well to enter a caveat against what one might call special legislation for different sections of the community. Otherwise we shall be landed into rather serious trouble in the future if major Bills are to be set aside in this way. We rejoice in the decision that has been arrived at, for while the seniors have been quarrelling the children have been suffering. This Bill will at least ensure that the children will receive the advantage of better school buildings and of more up-to-date equipment. For these reasons we welcome the Bill, and we hope that it will be the precursor of better and more harmonious times in Liverpool.

4.10 p.m.

Mr. Cove

I am sure that we all desire the quick passage of the Bill, and I shall, therefore, not detain the Committee for more than a few minutes; but I would like to comment on the fact that the supporters of the Government in Liverpool were undoubtedly the cause of the delay that has occurred in that city, and indeed, they made political capital out of the religious question there. They succeeded, as a matter of fact, in defeating Members on this side of the Committee who stood loyally by the provisions of the 1936 Act. In passing, I would like to congratulate the Board of Education on the strong line they took. There has undoubtedly been a change of heart, but I should imagine that that change of heart was largely brought about by the fact that the Board resolutely refused to bend down to the Liverpool authority. In Liverpool there are some very bad buildings and those who opposed the 1936 Act in Liverpool were perpetuating those bad buildings. I can recall that when the 1936 Act was going through there was a general consensus of opinion that that agreement should be applied all over the country, that every section of the community should make its contribution to the agreement embodied in that Act.

I want to obtain, if I can, from the Parliamentary Secretary two specific promises. One is that the detailed agreement in Liverpool is not to form a precedent to be applied in other parts of the country. This is a very exceptional Measure, as a matter of fact. We had the Act of 1936, which was to apply to the whole country. The Liverpool authority, the Conservatives, refused to apply that Act. Now, owing to that fact, these special arrangements have had to be made—special financial arrangements. I want from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education, if I can have, it, a specific promise that there is to be no more contracting out of a national Act of Parliament so far as this question is concerned. The other promise I want from the hon. Gentleman is this: I am glad in one sense that this agreement has been arrived at, because in these religious differences it is the children who always suffer when they are educated in bad buildings. Presumably the Bill will provide for new buildings to take the place of the old buildings in Liverpool. I want to get from the Parliamentary Secretary a definite statement that there will be no dilatoriness so far as these schools in Liverpool are concerned, that the building of the new schools will go on, and go on rapidly. Anybody who knows anything about the conditions in the bad schools in Liverpool will realise that it is absolutely essential that speed should be the order of the day.

In the sense that an agreement has been made, we all welcome this conclusion, for it will be of benefit to the health of the children when the new schools are built. I want to repeat that the Liverpool Conservative party, over a period of years, have resisted a national agreement that had been arrived at, and have done so to the detriment of the interests of the children of Liverpool. They ought to be very grateful that, though they have resisted, wiser feelings have prevailed here and broader statesmanship has been shown as far as the education services are concerned. If the Parliamentary Secretary can give specific assurances on the points I have raised, I shall be prepared to facilitate the rapid passage of the Bill.

4.16 p.m.

Mr. Maxwell Fyfe

I want to say only a word or two at this stage. While I do not intend to follow the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove) into controversies of the past, he will realise that I cannot accept the conclusions he has drawn. Considering the pains that have been taken not only by persons in Liverpool but by the Board of Education and by everyone who has assisted in securing this agreement, we are anxious not to go into old controversies and rekindle old fires. With regard to the points which the hon. Member raised, I will only say that it is not our idea to make this a precedent. The Bill deals with the unique distribution of population which there is in Liverpool and the unique problems that arise there from. As to the question of the rapidity with which the buildings will be put up, it is the intention of all parties in Liverpool that they should be erected as quickly as possible, and the hon. Gentleman, with his knowledge of these matters, will understand that there is very good reason why they should be put up by 1943. Therefore, as far as Liverpool is concerned, although of course I do not presume to give an undertaking, the hon. Member will realise that, having come to this agreement, everyone is anxious that the best that can be done should be done for the children of all sections of the population.

4.18 p.m.

Mr. Logan

I feel that at this stage one has to be as charitable as possible with regard to the difficulties through which we have passed in this matter. I assure every hon. Member that we are very well pleased that there has been a solution of this problem that has arisen in Liverpool. I should have liked to have seen the 1936 Act carried out, but difficulties arose in Liverpool that were not caused by the non-provided schools. It was a foreign element which caused all the trouble, and I trust that the death of that foreign element has now taken place in connection with the unanimous compromise which is embodied in this Bill. I am convinced that the Board of Education have done wisely in bringing all parties together and getting an arrangement in this matter. There is one fundamental fact which must be borne in mind, and which shows that this Bill is the only course, and that there is no alternative. I do not want anyone to have a wrong impression. It is founda-mental to the non-provided schools that religious training should be given in the schools, and from the point of view of the particular body to which I belong, there could be no arrangement with regard to education unless that were agreed upon.

I am grateful to Members of the Labour party and particularly to those who, in spite of their own opinions and their principle that there should be a common law for the whole country, have given way in this matter because they feel that this is a domestic matter to Liverpool. During the whole of the negotiations, I have found a feeling among my colleagues that it would be well if we could settle the Liverpool difficulties without there being any question of personalities, and so once and for all bury the hatchet in order that the children should have opportunities of a fuller and better education as a result of these facilities. All my life I have lived in the Scotland area of Liverpool, in the Kew district, which is a dilapidated part of the city, and I know its people, We are very glad indeed that a solution has been found. Along with my colleagues, I can say that we are delighted that this particular business is now being ended. I feel that this is the only solution, and as an agreement has been come to, which ought to be accepted by hon. Members, I feel there is no necessity to waste any more time on the matter.

4.21 p.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education (Mr. Kenneth Lindsay)

As unanimity exists in the Committee, it would be idle for a Minister to intervene. Whatever has happened in the past, the real point is that the children will profit in the future. Therefore, I have much pleasure in recording the unanimous agreement both in Liverpool and in this Committee.

Clauses 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, without Amendment.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

4.22 p.m.

Mr. Cove

I have not had answers to the questions I put, and if I am not to receive answers, I must speak on the Motion for the Third Reading of the Bill. I think that in courtesy some reference ought to be made to those questions, and if the Parliamentary Secretary will give me assurances on those points, the Bill will be passed very quickly.

4.23 p.m.

Mr. Lindsay

I am sorry if any discourtesy was shown to the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove). I thought that in a sense his questions were cancelled out by the speech on this side of the House. The title of this Bill, which is "Senior Public Elementary Schools (Liverpool) Bill," should make it clear that it is a Bill which applies only to Liverpool, and inasmuch as fresh legislation would be needed, and there is precious little chance of getting it, I do not think there is any possibility of this applying anywhere else, or of any other city getting a similar Bill. Furthermore, I thought the hon. Member was aware that the conditions in Liverpool are unique. For that reason, in addition, I think he may take it that no precedent is being created. As to the second point which the hon. Member made, there is a time limit, and we shall try to see that these buildings go up as rapidly as possible. I give the hon. Member that undertaking on behalf of the Board.