HC Deb 24 July 1939 vol 350 cc1164-74

11.12 p.m.

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, in page 7, line 11, at the end, to add: (3) In this Part of this Act the expression ' goods ' includes currency and any securities payable to bearer not being either bills of exchange or promissory notes. Under the Bill, as drafted, goods are defined in Clause 21. That definition of goods is unsuitable for the purpose of Part I, the insurance of cargoes, because it includes such things as growing crops. We are advised that, for marine insurance purposes, it is not necessary to define goods providing it is clear that currency and securities payable to bearer, not being either bills of exchange or promissory notes, are included. That is in accordance with ordinary marine insurance practice.

Mr. Bellenger

What is the position in relation to currency Will bullion or will it not be covered? I do not quite understand how bills of exchange or promissory notes can be insured, but perhaps I have not quite understood the hon. Gentleman's-explanation.

Mr. Cross

There is a separate provision in the agreement covering bullion. Currency is a separate matter. Bullion is dealt with separately in the agreement made with the insurance pool. Currency becomes insurable under the Amendment, and that is in accordance with ordinary marine insurance practice. Promissory notes and bills of exchange are excluded because, in the event of their loss, duplicates are obtainable.

Mr. Bellenger

How will currency be insurable? If it is not bullion, what is currency?

Mr. Cross

Pound notes.

Mr. Bellenger

On what basis are you going to insure one pound notes—on the nominal value of the notes or on the actual cost? On what basis of value is it proposed to recompense owners of notes which are damaged or lost in transit?

Mr. Cross

It is already the practice of the marine insurance market, and no doubt the terms of the policy will be in line with the ordinary practice. My understanding of it is the notes are insured for their face value.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 7.—(Scheme of insurance to operate in the event of war.)

11.16 p.m.

Mr. Stanley

I beg to move, in page 7, line 21, to leave out "Great Britain," and to insert "the United Kingdom."

This is the first of a number of Amendments, the object of which is to bring Northern Ireland within the scope of Part II of the Bill. The point was raised by the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) during the Second Reading Debate, and the view was expressed that Northern Ireland should be included. I then said it was a reserved subject and that Northern Ireland could only be brought in if they so desired. Northern Ireland has since expressed a desire to be included in Part II and this and the subsequent Amendments effect that inclusion.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

11.17 p.m.

Mr. A. V. Alexander

It is a great regret to many hon. Members of the Committee that Part II of the Bill should have to go through in this form, without any further assurance from the Government with regard to the general insurance of property as well as goods, while it is impossible to move such an Amendment as we would desire, on account of the limiting way in which the Bill is drafted. It is disturbing to find springing up in the country to-day numbers of so-called mutual risk insurance bodies which are beginning to practise on a basis which must be very misleading in some cases, and may involve some financial danger to those who are regarded as possible clients. I have come across a case to-day of a prospectus, which may cover goods of the character referred to in the Clause or may, more widely still, cover property and in it, people are warned in advance that the premiums are settled at a certain rate and that, at once, 50 per cent. of those premiums are taken for expenses. The remaining 50 per cent. are to be paid into the insurance fund and will then be used only as a mutual pool and not by any means as an actual insurance pool from premiums to cover the whole or anything like the whole risk. It seems to me that the Government should be prepared to tackle the whole question of property from a Government angle and take the good with the bad. Then there would be some hope of putting up a fund which, if it did not meet the whole loss incurred in war time, would go a long way in the direction of saving people, who want to make some provision against these risks, from complete financial loss. I ask the right hon. Gentleman, if he is not able now to widen the scope of the Bill, to prosecute with a great deal more urgency the objective which we have in mind, so that owners of goods or property will not be allowed to pay heavy premiums with no real benefit, when the State might be undertaking a much wider real war risk insurance of property and goods to meet the situation.

11.20 p.m.

Mr. Bellenger

The present position is very unsatisfactory and is bound to remain so until the Government issue some authoritative statement. I hope the Government will take an early opportunity of giving some direction or guidance to the owners of house property, thousands of whom are members of the party which I support and have sunk their savings in small houses—I am speaking particularly about owner-occupiers—and so save many of them from paying premiums from which they will get very small benefits in the event of war occurring.

11.21 p.m.

Mr. Stanley

I have some difficulty in replying, because, as both speakers have pointed out, we are not in order in discussing the subject of property in terms. I would refer them to my statement on the Second Reading. I know that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is pressing on with the formation of that committee. I do realise, from many points of view, the urgency of the problem and not least the point of view of the danger that until there is some authoritative scheme, if such a scheme can be produced, you may have these mushroom, and not always possibly very honest, companies springing up and exploiting ignorant people. Without knowing the facts of the case, I think the right hon. Gentleman opposite, by calling attention to a case where a company proposes to take 50 per cent. of the premiums for expenses, has done some service by warning those to whom this appeal may be made.

CLAUSE 8.—(Registration of insurances which would be required in the event of war.)

11.23 P.m.

Amendments made:

In page 8, line 4, leave out "had been," and insert "were."

In line, 7, leave out "Great Britain," and insert "the United Kingdom."

In page 9, line 18, leave out "Great Britain," and insert "the United Kingdom." —[Mr. Cross.]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 9.—(Power to make insurance compulsory in time of war.)

11.24 P.m.

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, in page 9, line 41, to leave out "Great Britain," and to insert "the United Kingdom." This and the remaining Government Amendments to this Clause are in the nature of drafting Amendments. The Clause prohibits a person carrying on business as a seller of goods owned by him unless he is insured when the compulsory provisions have been put into force. Some doubt was felt whether that would cover an agent. There might, for instance, be an agent acting on behalf of a foreign owner of goods. It was obviously the intention of the Clause that that person should be compelled to insure those goods, just as much as a British owner of goods is compelled to insure his goods, and this Amendment will remove all doubts on that score.

Amendment agreed to

Further Amendments made:

In page 9, line 42, leave out "owned by him."

In line 42, after "unless," insert: in respect of any goods insurable under this Part of this Act which are for the time being owned by him in the course of that business.

In line 44, leave out from "all," to "for," in page 10, line 2, and insert "such goods."

In page 10, line 3, leave out "of all such goods so owned," and insert "thereof for the time being "—[Mr. Cross.]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 10.—(Restriction on carrying on certain insurance business in time of war.)

Amendment made: In page 10, line 25, leave out "Great Britain," and insert "the United Kingdom." —[Mr. Stanley]:

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 11 —(Goods insurable under Part II.)

Amendment made: In page 10, line 43, leave out "Great Britain," and insert "the United Kingdom."—(Mr. Cross.]

11.27 P.m.

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, in page 11, line 4, to leave out from the first "in," to "being," in line 7, and to insert "the United Kingdom."

With your permission, Colonel Clifton Brown, I think this Amendment should be taken in conjunction with the Amendment to insert the new Sub-section (3): Goods shall be deemed not to be goods insurable under this Part of this Act if and so long as they are insured by the Board of Trade under Part I of this Act. The present test as to whether goods are insurable under Part II is whether they could lawfully be insured under Part I. If they can lawfully be insured under Part I they cannot be insured under Part II, but it could occur that goods might be lawfully insured under Part I but that the Board of Trade have not exercised their powers in that respect. It would follow from that that goods were not insured under Part I and at the same time would have become uninsurable under Part II. The Amendment remedies that position by making the test one of whether the goods are actually insured under Part I or not.

Amendment agreed to.

11.29 p.m.

Captain Strickland

I beg to move, in page 11, line 11, after "ingredients," to insert "or component parts."

This is a manuscript Amendment, which, I hope, may be accepted. It is obvious that there are certain parts of machinery, for instance, that could not be regarded as ingredients, and it is for the purpose of being able to include component parts of such things that I am moving this Amendment.

11.30 p.m.

Mr. Stanley

This is really a drafting Amendment, and I think it expresses things better. Raw cotton may properly be described as an ingredient of cotton cloth, but one would not describe a cogwheel as an ingredient of a piece of machinery, and the introduction of "component parts" would cover such cases.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 11, line 14, leave out "Great Britain," and insert "the United Kingdom."

In line 19, leave out "so situated as aforesaid," and insert "situated in the United Kingdom." —[Mr. Stanley.]

11.31 p.m.

Mr. Stanley

I beg to move, in page 11, line 20, to leave out Sub-section (2), and to insert: (2) In relation to a person carrying on in the United Kingdom the business of selling agricultural products produced by him, all agricultural products and livestock for the time being situated in the United Kingdom shall, subject to the following provisions of this Section, be deemed to be goods insurable under this Part of this Act. Provided that the Board of Trade may by order direct that a compulsory insurance order shall not operate so as to require a person to be insured in respect of any goods which, in relation to that person, would not, apart from the provisions of this Sub-section, be goods insurable under this Part of this Act.

This Amendment deals with the position of a business selling agricultural products. The Bill, as introduced, would leave it to the Board of Trade to exclude or include particular classes of agricultural goods. During the Debate on the Second Reading, the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) pointed out that it did not seem a good plan that these agricultural goods should be within or without the scope of insurance on the order of the Board of Trade. I thought there was force in the criticism. Now, in the Amendment, all agricultural products can be insurable under the scheme. That will cover a quantity of agricultural products which do not fall under the strict operation of Part II. For instance, a dairy herdsman sells the milk but does not sell the cow. He would be able to insure the dairy herd if he desired, in the time of voluntary insurance; but when a compulsory scheme is introduced the policy applied to agricultural products will be the same in degree as is to be put upon the seller of any type of goods. Then the description of agricultural products will fall within the general description of Part II; that is to say, it must be owned for purposes of selling.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 11, line 26, at the end, insert: (3) Goods shall be deemed not to be goods insurable under this Part of this Act if and so long as they are insured by the Board of Trade under Part I of this Act." —[Mr. Stanley.]

11.34 P.m.

Captain Strickland

I beg to move, in page 11, line 41, at the end, to add: (4) Things which, in relation to a person carrying on any business as a seller of goods, are at any time goods insurable under this Part of this Act shall not cease to be goods so insurable by reason only that they are subsequently placed in or affixed to land under a contract of sale entered into by that person in the course of that business.

Mr. Stanley

As I understand this Amendment, if you are assembling a machine in your own workshop you can insure the component parts under Part II, but if you are under contract to assemble the parts of the machine in someone else's factory, unless this Amendment is accepted, it is possible—although I am not convinced of it—that it would be outside the scope of the insurance. The Amendment makes it plain that such a case would be covered.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 12.—(Legal proceedings.)

Amendment made: In page 12, line 2, after "England," insert "or Northern Ireland." —[Mr. Stanley."]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 13.—(Employment of agents by Board of Trade.)

11.37 P.m.

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, in page 12, line 4, after "employ," to insert "or authorise the employment of."

This Amendment and the three following Amendments in the name of my right hon. Friend deal with the same point. Under the Clause as drafted the Board of Trade may only appoint agents, and this Amendment will bring all the companies' agents within the authority of the Board of Trade. It will enable the Board to appoint sub-agents, and thereby make the fullest use of the existing insurance machinery.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 12, line 4, leave out "such."

In line 5, leave out "as they think fit." —[Mr. Cross.]

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, in page 12, line 7, to leave out "by them."

Mr. Alexander

I do not see why these words should be left out, or why the Amendment is consequential.

Mr. Stanley

The right hon. Gentleman will see that the Clause says that the Board may employ persons to act as their agents, and may pay remuneration to persons so employed by them. "Obviously the words by them" are redundant, as the words "so employed" make it plain that these people are employed by the Board of Trade.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 14 (Orders of Board of Trade.)

Amendments made:

In page 12, line 29, leave out "things," and insert "goods."

In line 30, leave out "to be or." —[Mr. Stanley.]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 15.—(Interpretation and extent of Part II.)

Amendments made:

In page 13, line 10, leave out "and."

In line 19, at the end, insert: (c) the expression 'agricultural products' means products of agriculture. horticulture or silviculture, and includes growing crops, plants and trees; (d) the expression ' livestock ' includes animals of any description; and (e) the expression ' goods ' mean? goods as defined by Section sixty-two of the Sale of Goods Act, 1893, and includes agricultural products."—[Mr. Cross.]

11.41 p.m.

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, in page 13, line 39, after "ship," to insert "constructed for sale."

This Amendment and the next have been Inserted to meet a point raised by my hon. Friend the senior Member for the City of London (Sir A. Anderson). He indicated that the words already in the Clause relating to the completion of construction of ships were not in accord with the ordinary practice, and that a gap in the insurance might occur because after a vessel had been completed it had to go on its trials, and would not be insurable by the shipbuilder or the shipowner, as the shipowner would not have possession of the ship as a seller of goods in the United Kingdom. This Amendment will remedy that situation. It goes further and deals with the situation created if the constructor went into liquidation or bankruptcy. It provides that in that case the constructor or his personal representative must still be the person to insure to carry out the insurance. That is necessary because it would not be within the power of the purchaser to insure the vessel.

11.43 p.m.

Mr. David Adams

What is the position in the event of the shipowner having paid money on account as the work proceeds on the building of the ship? Is the liability on the constructor to have that vessel insured although he is not the owner of those portions which have been already paid for?

Mr. Cross

Yes, that is so.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 13, line 41, leave out from "before," to the end of line 42, and insert: delivery of the ship to the purchaser; and the foregoing reference to the constructor shall be construed as including a reference to his personal representative or any person carrying on business in succession to him by virtue of any assignment or transmission by operation of law." —[Mr. Cross.]

In line 43, leave out Sub-section (3). —[Mr. Stanley.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

11.44 P.m.

Mr. Alexander

I see that "livestock" is so interpreted as to include "any animals." I should like to know exactly what the Minister has in mind. I hope he does not propose to insure rabbits for example. Perhaps he will think it over before the Report stage is taken to-morrow night.

Mr. Pritt

Will it include the rats on a sinking ship?

Mr. Stanley

I do not know whether the hon. and learned Gentleman knows of any case of the selling of rats, but I understand that in the case to which he refers the selling is usually done by the rats themselves. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) will see that, although he truly described the wide spirit of the provision, it is qualified by the fact that you can only insure people carrying on business as sellers of these goods, and they are not the people carrying on business as sellers of the particular animals to which reference has been made.

Clauses 16 to 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 21.—(Definition of "goods".)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

11.47 p.m.

Mr. Stanley

I must tell the right hon. Gentleman, who was taken aback at the rapidity of our progress, that I gave the correct explanation for leaving out this Clause on a previous Amendment. No. hon. Member, I am glad to say, noticed the mistake. I am also glad that the Amendment which I explained quite correctly was really a drafting Amendment.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

Clause 22 ordered to stand part of the Bill.