HC Deb 24 July 1939 vol 350 cc1139-64

The following Amendments stood upon the Order Paper in the name ofMr. SHINWELL: In page 2, line 32, leave out "may" and insert "shall." In line 36, leave out from "risks" to the end of the paragraph.

The Chairman (Sir Dennis Herbert)

In regard to the second of these Amendments in the name of the hon. Member I have no trouble or doubt: it is in order, and should be selected. But as to the first Amendment I have not the same confidence. If the hon. Member wishes to press it perhaps he will give me some explanation of it. At the moment I am doubtful as to whether it is within the scope of the Bill.

9.51 p.m.

Mr. Shinwell

I should imagine that the proposal comes within the Title of the Bill. If I may, with respect, draw your attention to the Title, it is: to make provision for authorising the Board of Trade, in the event of war and in other circumstances, to undertake the insurance of ships and other goods. That authorisation seems to be quite definite and, therefore, we propose in the first Amendment that the word "shall" be substituted for the word "may."

The Chairman

The hon. Member is under a slight, but not uncommon misapprehension. It is not a question whether it comes within the Title of the Bill, but whether it comes within the scope of the Bill. I have to consider the Amendment largely in connection with the next Amendment, and it seems to me that a definite proposal that the Board of Trade shall do something which, after all, is not what is intended, may be in my opinion outside the scope of the Bill. Whether an Amendment is or is not within the scope of a Bill may often be a matter of opinion; but in that case the decision rests with the Chair. I will allow the hon. Member to move his Amendment, but subject to my right to decline to put it to the Committee if I come to the conclusion it is not in order.

Mr. Stanley

Would it not be convenient to discuss the two Amendments together?

Mr. Shinwell

I was about to make that suggestion.

The Chairman

If that meets the general assent of the Committee, I am prepared to allow it. But the hon. Member will if he adopts that course do so with my warning to him which in that case will cover his second Amendment also.

Mr. Shinwell

I beg to move, in page 2, line 32, to leave out "may," and to insert "shall."

We think it advisable to give the Board of Trade obligatory powers instead of leaving it to their discretion to undertake insurance within certain circumstances. As I understand the Clause, the Board of Trade is to effect the insurance of British ships and the insurance of cargoes when it may appear to them to be beyond what can be provided by private insurance companies. Those who understand the business will readily agree that in time of war, when there is considerable risk and consequent damage involving serious liabilities on those who undertake mutual insurance, it may be necessary for the State to avail itself of the facilities and undertake a task which could not ordinarily be undertaken by a mutual insurance company. I take it that is the purpose of the Clause. We desire the Board of Trade to undertake the obligation without exception of any sort or kind. It seems to me that for the Board of Trade to leave the matter until the insurance market becomes chaotic because of the risks entailed, would be unfair to the taxpayer, who would at some time be called upon to meet the expenditure which is likely to be entailed. It is obvious that if there is a considerable risk, and consequent damage and a heavy liability, the State will not be able to meet the claims entirely out of the premiums that are paid. There must be some State expenditure bearing upon the taxpayers. Consequently, it would be advisable for the Board of Trade to undertake insurance of this kind irrespective of whether there existed adequate and reasonable facilities for the purpose.

There is another reason why the insurance of ships and cargoes should be undertaken as an obligation by the Board of Trade. On the Second Reading of the Bill, I argued that it might happen that, in respect of certain classes of insurance, the mutual insurance companies, the indemnity companies and the like, would undertake the lesser risk, whereas the State would have to undertake the greater risk, and that a method might be devised by the indemnity associations whereby they accepted risks on a particular trade —I am speaking of a shipping trade or a shipping route, such, for example, as the River Plate trade or the Orient trade —exclusive of any State insurance because they were likely to make a profit by so doing, whereas the greater risk involved in another trade might have to be undertaken by the Board of Trade. Therefore, from the point of view of covering shipowners and cargo owners and from the point of view of the taxpayer, it would be much more advisable if the Board of Trade itself undertook the task of insurance.

Apart from that, I should like to point out that, although the question of damage is a matter of speculation, in the last War, although the re-insurance provided by the State emerged not at the beginning of the War but at a later stage, and was not regarded as satisfactory by the shipowners or even by the Government—I have read some of the questions asked and answers given in Parliament between 1914 and 1918—yet the State contrived to make a profit of £16,000,000 out of the business. If there is a profit, there is no reason why the State should not earn it, particularly as the State must at some time be prepared to undertake the necessary risks. I move this Amendment on the ground that the Board of Trade can easily undertake the task of insurance. The question of machinery is a small matter. The setting up of a State insurance department in London could be undertaken without any difficulty. A State insurance department of the same kind was set up without difficulty during the last War and was carried on very successfully. The same thing could be done in the next war, for the purpose of providing that cover which shipowners and cargo owners regard as necessary.

The Chairman

Having heard the hon. Member move the Amendment, I will not object to put the Amendment to the Committee. But I may tell him that if I had heard the speech before the Debate began I should very possibly have found some good reason for not selecting the Amendment.

9.59 p.m.

Mr. John Wilmot

My hon. Friend and I are moving these Amendments because we feel, as I think is felt in other quarters, that an enterprise of such magnitude and of such vital importance as the insurance of British shipping in time of war is one which ought to be undertaken by the State. This Bill gives to the Board of Trade permissive powers to undertake this business if ordinary private enterprise breaks down and does not function. Until then, the State stands behind the private insurance companies as a re-insurer and, in fact, a guarantor. This seems to me to be the worst form of State intervention. It means that as long as there are profits they will go into private hands, but that as soon as the business becomes unprofitable, it will have to be carried on by the community. Moreover, the more profitable sphere of the business will continue to be done by private enterprise, while the more risky and unprofitable sphere will be left uncovered, so that these permissive powers will have to be operated by the Board of Trade.

Mr. Marcus Samuel

Might it not also be that the underwriters, being honest men, would limit their liabilities and not undertake greater liabilities than they could possibly pay?

Mr. Wilmot

I have no doubt that insurance underwriters are honest people, but the purpose of this Measure is, very properly, to give complete cover to British ships and cargoes in order that they may go about their business without undue fear of the consequences after the outbreak of war. It is quite improper that the community should allow one type of trade to bear a special risk, and it is proper that the State should undertake the insurance. I do not see the relevance of the hon. Member's intervention. The limiting of liability would completely defeat the purpose of the scheme, and therefore, the purpose of the Amendments is to alter the scope of the scheme so that the State would undertake, from the beginning, the whole business of marine insurance against war risks. I put it to the right hon. Gentleman that ultimately that is what will happen. The State will have to carry the risk of damage to ships and cargoes in time of war. It would be a much more businesslike way to set up a business corporation and deal with it from the beginning.

10.3 p.m.

Colonel Sandeman Allen

It is obvious to those who know anything about insurance that the two hon. Members who have spoken in favour of the Amendment have very little grasp of the business. It may be of interest to the Committee to know that the British marine insurance market controls at least four-fifths of the world's marine insurance, and that that marine insurance covers not merely the British Mercantile Marine, but a great many foreign vessels as well. In time of war, there is no doubt that neutrals and allies, and not British ships, would be carrying a large proportion of our sup plies, and they would have to be covered. We could not expect the Government to take charge of the insurance of foreign persons' vessels—

Mr. Wilmot

Will not the Government, under this scheme, carry the re-insurance risk on foreign hulks?

Colonel Sandeman Allen

Yes, but they will carry the re-insurance risks from British underwriters. That is a different story.

Mr. Wilmot

If the underwriters default, the Government will have to pay.

Colonel Sandeman Allen

No, not if they default. The Government will get a premium for taking the risk and if the risk eventuates and the claim is made, the Government will have to pay in the same way as the underwriters. This is only a war risk insurance. If hon. Members were logical, they would carry it further and say that marine risks as well as war risks should be carried. During war time it is essential to get cargoes here, and people do not make claims for damage in trifling matters at all. But the great point against the Amendment is that a great many ships are foreign-owned, and it is not in the purview of our Board of Trade to undertake their insurance.

Mr. Shinwell

Why is it that the Board of Trade are asking for powers to undertake the insurance of British and foreign vessels?

Colonel Sandeman Allen

In the case of reinsurance they must do it, but to make a business of it would not be in the interests of the country.

Mr. Shinwell

Clause 2 provides for powers being vested in the Board of Trade, if they so desire, to carry on business for all or any of the following purposes"— the insurance of British ships and also foreign ships against King's enemy and war risks.

10.6 p.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. Cross)

My right hon. Friend could not accept these Amendments because they cut right across the basis of Part I of the Bill, which is that in peace-time the Board of Trade should engage in marine insurance only in so far as the existing machinery of the insurance market is inadequate for that purpose. We certainly do not desire or intend to undertake any unnecessary liabilities. The market is prepared and able at present to take a certain proportion of the war risks and, so long as they are really able to carry those war risks, we certainly do not covet the underwriting of them. Paragraph (a) is simply a breakdown provision, lest by any chance the provisions under Clause I should cease to operate satisfactorily. It is simply a reserve power, and there is really no reason to anticipate that it will ever be required. In the last War the operations of the Mutual War Risks Association carried right on until August, 1917, and they ceased to function then only because the insurable basis had become very much too narrow. They had so few ships to insure, on account of the fact that the Government had requisitioned a very large number, that no proper insurable basis was left for the association.

Mr. Shinwell

Is it not intended that in the next war the Government should requisition a larger number of ships?

Mr. Cross

The first paragraph relates to the underwriting of war risks in peace time. It is the next paragraph, (6), which deals with circumstances in war time.

Peace may continue, and we hope it will continue, for an, indefinite period. The effect of the Amendment would be to set up, for dealing with war risks in time of peace, machinery which would go on indefinitely, and would duplicate a machinery which under normal conditions is able to carry these risks without any assistance from the Government whatever. It would, moreover, put an added responsibility on the Board of Trade at a time when it is, of all times, least fitted to undertake a further responsibility. The hon. Member also suggested that the Mutual War Risks Associations might pick and choose the risks which they underwrote. They might thereby keep the better risks to themselves while passing on the worst risks to the Board of Trade. That is not the case. They have to re-insure 80 per cent. of all the King's enemy risks part of the war risks which they underwrite.

The hon. Member also suggested that the Government might charge premiums on war risks on ships in time of peace in place, I understand, of the existing arrangement under which no premiums are chargeable. The purpose of the Government, as is evidenced in this part of the Bill, is not to add any avoidable burden to trade by the charging of premiums. In view of the fact that in the course of last week we gave a Second Reading to a Bill to assist shipping, it would be very undesirable to attempt to put upon shipping an added burden, amounting to some hundreds of thousands a year, which might well have the effect that the Government would be called upon to increase the amount of subsidy to be given in order to pay for these insurance premiums. For these reasons I ask the Committee to resist the Amendment.

Question put, "That the word ' may ' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 234; Noes, 108.

Division No. 271.] AYES. [10.14 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) Bracken, B.
Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) Balniel, Lord Braithwaite, J. Gurney (Holderness)
Albery, Sir Irving Barrie, Sir C. C. Broadbridge, Sir G. T.
Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead) Baxter, A. Beverley Brocklebank, Sir Edmund
Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir W. J. (Armagh) Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.)
Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S. Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.)
Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.) Beechman, N. A. Bullock, Capt. M.
Apsley, Lord Bernays, R. H. Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A.
Aske, Sir R. W. Boothby, R. J. G. Campbell, Sir E. T.
Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover) Bossom, A. C. Cartland, J. R. H.
Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton) Boulton, W. W. Carver, Major W. H.
Baillie, Sir A. W. M. Bower, Comdr. R. T. Cary, R. A.
Baldwin-Webb, Col. J. Boyce, H. Leslie Channon, H.
Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) Hopkinson, A. Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)
Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead) Horabin, T. L. Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead)
Clydesdale, Marquess of Horsbrugh, Florence Remer, J. R.
Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)
Colville, Rt. Hon. John Home, Sir G. H. Ropner, Colonel L.
Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk N.) Hunloke, H. P. Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)
Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) Hutchinson, G. C. Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)
Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.) James, Wing-Commander A. W. H. Rothschild, J. A. de
Cox, H. B. Trevor Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n) Rowlands, G.
Craven-Ellis, W. Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth) Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.
Critchley, A. Keeling, E. H. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.
Crooke, Sir J. Smedley Kellett, Major E. O. Russell, Sir Alexander
Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose) Salmon, Sir I.
cross, R. H Kerr, Sir John Graham (Sco'sh Univs.) Salt, E. W.
Crowder, J. F. E. Lamb, Sir J. Q. Samuel, M. R. A.
Culverwell, C. T. Leech, Sir J. W. Schuster, Sir G. E.
Davidson, Viscountess Lees-Jones, J. Selley, H. R.
Denman, Hon. R. D. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Shakespeare, G. H.
Denville, Alfred Lipson, D. L. Shepperson, Sir E. W.
Doland, G. F. Little, Sir E. Graham- Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.
Dorman-Smith, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir R. H. Little, J. Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)
Dower, Lieut.-Col. A. V. G. Llewellin, Colonel J. J. Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)
Drewe, C. Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S. Smithers, Sit W.
Dugdale, Captain T. L. Loftus, P. C. Snadden, W. McN.
Duggan, H. J. Lucas, Major Sir J. M. Somerset, T.
Duncan, J. A. L. Mac Andrew, Colonel Sir C. G. Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald
Dunglass, Lord M'Connell, Sir J. Somerville, Sir A. A. (Windsor)
Eckersley, P. T. McCorquodale, M. S. Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.
Edmondson, Major Sir J. Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight) Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.
Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. McEwen, Capt. J. H. F. Spans. W. P.
Ellis, Sir G. Mckie, J. H. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'ld)
Ellison, Capt. G. S. Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees) Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)
Emery, J. F. Macnamara, Lt.-Col. J. R. J. Strickland, Captain W. F.
Emrys-Evans, P. V. Maitland, Sir Adam Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)
Errington, E. Mander, G. le M. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Erskine-Hill, A. G. Manningham-Buller, Sir M. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.
Evans, D. O. (Cardigan) Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Sutcliffe, H.
Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales) Markham, S. F. Tasker, Sir R. I.
Findlay, Sir E. Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham) Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)
Fleming, E. L. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Thorneycroft, G. E. P.
Foot, D. M. Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick) Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.
Fremantle, Sir F. E. Mitcheson, Sir G. G. Titchfield, Marquess of
Furness, S. N. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel Sir T. C. R. Touch., G. C.
Fyfe, D. P. M, Moreing, A. C. Tree, A. R. L. F.
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.) Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
Glyn, Major Sir R. G C. Morris-Jones, Sir Henry Turton, R. H.
Goldie, N. B. Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's) Walker-Smith, Sir J.
Gower, Sir R. V. Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J. Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) Munro, P. Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)
Greens, W. P. C. (Worcester) Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H. Wayland, Sir W. A
Gridley, Sir A. B. Nicholson, G. (Farnham) Webbe, Sir W. Harold
Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) Nicolson, Hon. H. G. Wedderburn, H. J. S.
Grigg, Sir E. W. M. O'Connor, Sir Terence J. White, H. Graham
Grimston, R. V. O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.
Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W. Orr-Ewing, I. L. Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, S.)
Hambro, A. V. Patrick, C. M. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Hannah, I. C. Peake, O. Windsor-dive, Lieut.-Colonel G.
Hannon, Sir P. J. H. Perkins, W. R. D. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Harris, Sir P. A. Petherick, M. Wise, A. R.
Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) Pickthorn, K. W. M. Wright, Wing-commander J. A. C.
Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) Ponsonby, Col. C. E. York, C.
Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. Procter, Major H. A. Young, A. S. L. (Partick)
Hely-Hutchinson, M. R. Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.
Hepworth, J. Ramsden, Sir E. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Holdsworth, H. Rankin, Sir R. Captain Waterhouse and Mr.
Holmes, J. S. Reed, A. C. (Exeter) Buchan-Hepburn.
NOES.
Adams, D. (Consett) Charleton, H. C. Frankel, D.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) Cluse, W. S. Gardner, B. W.
Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford) Cooks, F. S. Garro Jones, G. M
Adamson, W. M. Cove, W. G. Gibson, R. (Greenock)
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford Green, W. H. (Deptford)
Ammon, C. G. Daggar, G Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.
Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) Dalton, H. Grenfell, D. R.
Barnes, A. J. Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)
Baley, J. Day, H. Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)
Bellenger, F. J. Dobbie, W. Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)
Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W. Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) Hayday, A.
Benson, G. Ede, J. C. Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)
Bevan, A. Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) Henderson, J. (Ardwick)
Buchanan, G. Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwelty) Henderson, T. (Tradeston)
Cape, T. Edwards, N. (Caerphilly) Hills, A. (Pontefract
Hopkin, D. Montague F. Sorenson, R. W.
Jagger, J Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Stephen, C.
John, W. Naylor, T. E. Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-lc-Sp'ng)
Johnston, Rt. Hen. T. Oliver, G. H. Summerskill, Dr. Edith
Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. Paling, W. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Kirby, B. V. Parker, J. Thurtle, E.
Lansbury, Rt. Hen. G. Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W. Tinker, J. J.
Lathan, G. Poole, C. C. Viant, S. P.
Lawson, J. J. Pritt, D. N. Walkden, A. G.
Lee, F. Quibell, D. J. K. Watkins, F. C.
Leslie, J. R. Ridley, G. Watson W. McL.
Logan, D. G. Riley, B. Westwood, J.
McEntee, V. La T. Ritson, J. Wilkinson, Ellen
McGhee, H. G. Robinson. W. A. (St. Helens) Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
MacLaren, A. Sexton, T. M. Williams, T. (Den Valley)
Maclean, N. Shinwell, E. Wilmot, John
MacMillan, M. (Western Isles Silkin, L. Windsor, W. (Hull, C)
Mainwaring, W. H. Silverman, S. S. Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)
Mathers, G. Simpson, F. B. Young, Sir R. (Newton)
Maxton, J. Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)
Messer, F. Smith, E. (Stoke) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Milner, Major J. Smith, T. (Normanton) Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Groves.

10.23 p.m.

Mr. Stanley

I beg to move, in page 3, line 19, to leave out "the premises to which they are consigned," and to insert "their destination."

This is really in the nature of a drafting Amendment. It is intended to cover goods in transit between the ship and the warehouse to which they are consigned. The words of the Bill are, "premises to which they are consigned," but it was pointed out that on many occasions goods may not be consigned to premises, and we, therefore, desire to make this Amendment.

10.24 p.m.

Mr. Maxwell Fyfe

Could not "destination" be defined? Might there not be some trouble from this aspect, that under the bill of lading the time when the shipowner's liability would cease would be when the goods crossed the side of the vessel, either into the lighter or on to the quay, and that, in the ordinary method of nomenclature, would be the destination of the goods? I fully welcome my right hon. Friend's intention of enabling the Board to give cover to the warehouse, but I would ask him to consider the difficult point as to whether "destination" in this special context should not be clarified by some further definition.

Mr. Stanley

I do not think there is any risk of confusion here. I understand that this is the drafting always used at the time when this sort of risk is covered.

Amendment agreed to.

10.25 P.m.

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, in page 3, line 28, to leave out "Great Britain, Northern Ireland," and to insert "the United Kingdom."

This Amendment is moved in consequence of the extension of Part II of the Bill to Northern Ireland. My right hon. Friend indicated in the course of the Second Reading that the Government would be willing to extend the provisions of Part II to Northern Ireland if the Government of Northern Ireland indicated their wish to come in. They have indicated their desire to do so, and it has become necessary to make this alteration in Part I in order to give effect to the principle that runs throughout the original drafting of the Bill, that where goods are moved between two warehouses in which the goods are insurable under Part II the goods should be covered under Part II during transit except in so far as they may be transported in a seagoing vessel. The effect, therefore, of this Amendment would be that in the case of goods which are being transported from this country to Northern Ireland the ship to warehouse risks at both ends of the journey would be covered under Part II and not under Part I, while the actual ship voyage would be covered under Part I.

Amendment agreed to.

10.27 p.m.

Mr. David Adams

I beg to move, in page 3, line 35, to leave out from "therein," to the end of the Clause.

The purpose of this Amendment is that the lighters or other craft into which cargo may be discharged or from which cargo may be loaded into ships should be covered by insurance. As we see it, that provision is expressly excluded by the Clause as it stands. I think it must be admitted that the part that lighters and kindred vessels play in connection with the handling of cargoes is very important both here and abroad. Some of those vessels are driven by motor power, and some are of relatively costly construction, and why they are to be excluded from war risk cover we are somewhat at a loss to understand. It seems to us that if this cover is not afforded shipowners and receivers of cargo may find difficulty in obtaining the necessary vessels for the handling of cargoes either at the time of loading or discharging. Perhaps there may be some subtle explanation of why the Bill has deliberately excluded these vessels, by the provision: does not include any vessel into which the goods are discharged at any port or place in that country for the purpose of being landed at that port or place, or from which the goods are discharged for the purpose of being carried by sea or by air from that country, as the case may be. We know that cargoes in transit either after discharge or before discharge are exceedingly liable to be damaged in time of war, and we propose this Amendment to give the necessary cover. If in some parts of the Bill which we have not discovered that cover is already available we may be satisfied to withdraw the Amendment, but in the absence of some such assurance it seems to us a remarkable position that these important instruments for the handling of cargo should not receive protection against King's enemy risk at a time of war.

10.30 p.m.

Mr. Stanley

I quite understand the hon. Member's desire to deal with the question of lighters, but I think he misconceives the meaning of Sub-section (2) and also the effect of the Amendment which he is moving. The definition of ship or aircraft which includes the words which he wants to delete, would, as he says, eliminate the lighter, as in paragraph (e).If the hon. Gentleman will look at paragraph (e) he will see that it has nothing to do with insurance of ships, whether it is an ocean-going ship or a lighter, but only with the insurance of cargoes. The reason for the words which the hon. Gentleman wants to leave out is that we desire to cover those goods as soon as they come over the ship's side —by "ship" I mean the ocean-going ship that brought them in—until they reach their destination. By excluding the lighter from the definition of ship we are able in the same policy to cover the whole of the journey.

If we were to accept the hon. Gentleman's Amendment and the lighter then fell under the definition of ship, the cover under paragraph (e) would start to run only when the goods were moved from the lighter, and there would be no cover under paragraph (e) between the liner and the shore. It is clear that the whole of the operation from the liner to the ultimate destination should be covered in one policy and it is for that reason that the definition is given. With regard to the hon. Gentleman's point as to the cover of lighters, that would be possible under paragraph (b), as he will see if he looks at it. It would be possible in war-time to insure lighters as ships under that cover.

10.33 P.m.

Mr. Shinwell

I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is desirable to effect cover from one point to another so that there will be no disturbance, but surely it is wrong that lighters into which the goods are discharged should not come within the scope of the insurance or be able to receive compensation in the event of damage, although the goods themselves are protected and the vessels from which the goods are unshipped are also protected. The right hon. Gentleman has argued throughout these Debates that some inducement must be offered to shipowners and owners of goods in order to maintain the commercial needs of the country. This is the inducement that is offered, the insurance and the additional cover which the right hon. Gentleman described. It may be that shipowners and owners of cargoes require additional cover of this kind, but what is to happen to the owners of lighters and barges? If risk is entailed in the particular area where these barges and lighters operate in carrying goods from ships to the dock-side and on the waterways of the count-try, and if they are not covered by insurance, is it not likely that their owners will lay up their vessels and not bring them into use? Surely an inducement is necessary in their case, just as in the case of the shipowners and the owners of cargoes and goods.

I venture the opinion that this anomaly ought to be removed. The right hon. Gentleman rightly said that these vessels, if they can be called vessels, are not in the same category as the ships which are covered by the insurance provisions of the Bill, and, so far as I am aware, they do not come within the scope of marine insurance risks. Nevertheless, they are essential goods required for the carrying on of the commercial needs of the country, whether in time of war or in time of peace. Without lighters or barges it would be impossible in many waterways of the country, and certainly in the Port of London, to tranship the goods and convey them to the shore as at present. Therefore, it seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman ought to reconsider this matter, and that, if he cannot provide some re-insurance for the owners of lighters and barges, he ought at least to be able on Report to indicate what measure of compensation will be provided for the owners of lighters and barges so as to ensure that these vessels will be kept in commission, or, in other words, utilised for the purposes of the transhipment of goods.

10.37 p.m.

Mr. Bellenger

Do I understand that under this Clause the ocean-going ships will be covered from the point of embarkation to the point of disembarkation, and that the cargoes will be similarly covered, including transfer from the ship to the lighter, but that the last point on the journey, namely, the lighters, which take the cargoes which will be insured under the Clause, will not themselves be insured? If so, there would seem to be the anomaly that if the ocean-going liner were sunk the insurance would run on the cargo boat and on the cargo, but if the lighter were sunk the insurance would only run on the cargo and not on the lighter. Is that correct?

Mr. Stanley

I pointed out that it would be possible under paragraph (b) for the Board, if they so desired, to insure the lighter, and equally it is possible, if we find it preferable, for the lighter to be brought with other property under the purview of the new committee that we are setting up.

Mr. Shinwell

Do we understand that it comes within the scope of paragraph (b), which says: the insurance by the Board, during the continuance of any war in which His Majesty may be engaged, of British ships and of foreign ships not being ships used in the service of a Power at war with His Majesty. Are we to understand that the term "British ships" in this paragraph includes barges and lighters?

Mr. Stanley

It is not covered by the draft agreement, but I understand that it could be covered under this paragraph.

Mr. Shinwell

Is it specifically covered?

Mr. Stanley

It could be.

Mr. Shinwell

I am not clear what is meant by "could be." It is true that they do not come within the scope of any agreements that can be entered into between the Board of Trade and the mutual indemnity association. It may be —I am not certain about this—that some lighter and barge owners do insure with indemnity associations. I should not be surprised if that is so. Are we to understand that these associations are out with the scope of the agreements included in the Bill? In any event it seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman ought to be more specific. My surmise is that they are not included at any time in the Bill. In spite of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman says that they could be, I do not think that at any time they could be. It seems to me that the provision ought to be very much more specific than it is. It has been suggested to the right hon. Gentleman that this is an anomaly. It is really monstrous that an anomaly of this kind should continue. The right hon. Gentleman said something about a previous Amendment making nonsense of the Bill. If anything makes nonsense of the Bill, it is the fact that, although the ship is insured and the cargo is insured, the lighter into which the cargo is transhipped is not insured.

10.41 p.m.

Mr. David Adams

The Minister states that this insurance of lighters and barges may be effected under paragraph (b), but that paragraph refers to: "the insurance by the Board, during the continuance of any war in which His Majesty may be engaged, of British ships and of foreign ships not being ships used in the service of a Power at war with His Majesty. That makes no reference to barges or lighters. What protection can be afforded to lighters and barges abroad which are engaged in loading or discharging British or neutral vessels employed by this country? As we know, the sole method of handling cargoes in many ports abroad is through lighters. It is an important part of the trade of many countries, and if this method of conveyance is to be excluded from the protection which Great Britain is to give to those handling her cargoes I can easily see, from my own experience, the withdrawal of such barges and lighters from the use of the British Government. If the Minister states that this protection can be given, may we inquire whether it will be done, so that barges and lighters shall have the protection which is unquestionably missing as the Clause stands?

10.43 P.m.

Sir Percy Harris

I cannot understand why the Bill goes out of its way to exclude any vessel into which the goods are discharged at any port or place … Is that a general custom of the trade? We are entitled to some explanation.

Mr. Stanley

In the Sub-section to which we are referring they are excluded because the previous practice was always to issue policies on goods but not on the lighters.

10.44 P.m.

Miss Wilkinson

It is all right for the Minister to get up and, in a pontifical way, say, "We are just restoring previous practice," but why should that be so? Must the Minister go back to the year one, and cite the fact that he is going back to a previous practice as an answer?

Mr. Stanley

The lighter in which the goods are carried and the goods that are carried in the lighter are usually in different ownership.

Mr. Shinwell

The right hon. Gentleman is aware that frequently the cargoes carried on vessels are not in the same ownership as the vessels.

Mr. Stanley

It is for that reason that we have two different schemes: one for cargoes and one for vessels.

Mr. Wilmot

Does it not appear that the good risks will be carried by private insurance and the really risky risks placed on the Exchequer?

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 228; Noes, 119.

Division No. 272.] AYES. [10.46 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) Emrys-Evans, P. V.
Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead) Errington, E.
Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. Clydesdale, Marquess of Erskine-Hill, A. G.
Albery, Sir Irving Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)
Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead) Colman, N, C. D. Everard, Sir William Lindsay
Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir W. J. (Armagh) Colville, Rt. Hon. John Findlay, Sir E.
Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S. Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.) Fleming, E. L.
Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.) Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S) Fremantle, Sir F. E.
Apsley, Lord Cox, H. B. Trevor Furness, S. N.
Aske, Sir R. W. Craven-Ellis, W. Fyfe, D. P. M.
Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover) Critchley, A. Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.
Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Button) Crooke, Sir J. Smedley Goldie, N. B.
Baillie, Sir A. W. M. Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. Gower, Sir R. V.
Baldwin-Webb, Col. J. Cross, R. H. Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)
Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) Crowder, J. F. E. Granville, E. L.
Balniel, Lord Cruddas, Col. B. Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)
Baxter, A. Beverley Culverwell, C, T. Gridley, Sir A. B.
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Davidson, Viscountess Grigg, Sir E. W. M.
Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) Davies, C. (Montgomery) Grimston, R. V.
Beechman, N. A. De Chair, S. S. Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W.
Bernays, R. H. Denman, Hon. R. D. Hambro, A. V.
Bossom, A. C. Denville, Alfred Hannah, I. C.
Boulton, W. W. Doland, G. F. Hannon, Sir P. J. H.
Bower, Comdr. R. T. Dorman-Smith, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir R. H. Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)
Boyce, H. Leslie Dower, Lieut.-Col, A. V. G. Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)
Bracken, B. Drewe, C. Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.
Braithwaite, J. Gurney (Holderness) Dugdale, Captain T. L. Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-
Broadbridge, Sir G. T. Duggan, H. J. Hepworth, J.
Brocklebank, Sir Edmund Duncan, J. A. L. Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.)
Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.) Dunglass, Lord Holdsworth, H.
Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.) Eckersley P. T. Holmes, J. S.
Bullock, Capt. M. Edmondson, Major Sir J. Horsbrugh, Florence
Campbell, Sir E. T. Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Howitt, Dr. A. B.
Cartland, J. R. H. Ellis, Sir G. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)
Carver, Major W. H. Elliston, Capt. G. S. Hume, Sir G. H.
Cary, R. A. Emery, J, F. Hunloke, H. P.
Hutchinson, G. C. Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) Snadden, W. McN.
James, Wing-Commander A. W. H. Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J. Somerset, T.
Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n) Munro, P. Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald
Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth) Neven-Spence, Major B. H, H. Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.
Keeling, E. H. Nicholson, G. (Farnham) Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.
Kellett, Major E. O. Nicolson, Hon. H. G. Spent, W. P.
Kerr, Sir John Graham (Sco'sh Univs.) O'Connor, Sir Terence J. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)
Lamb, Sir J. Q. O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)
Latham, Sir P. Orr-Ewing, I. L. Strickland, Captain W. F.
Lees-Jones, J. Peake, O. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)
Leech, Sir J. W. Perkins, W. R. D. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Leighton, Major D. E. P. Petherick, M. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.
Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. Pickthorn, K. W. M. Sutcliffe, H.
Lindsay, K. M. Ponsonby, Col. C. E Tasker, Sir R. I.
Lipson, D. L. Procter, Major H. A. Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)
Little, Sir E. Graham- Ramsay, Captain A. H. M. Thorneycroft, G. E. P.
Little, J. Ramsden, Sir E. Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.
Llewellin, Colonel J. J. Rankin, Sir R. Titchfield, Marquess of
Locker-Lampson, Comdr. o. S. Reed. A. C. (Exeter) Touche, G. C.
Loftus, P. C. Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury) Tree, A. R, L. F.
Lucas, Major Sir J. M. Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead) Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
Mabane,, W. (Huddersfield) Renter, J. R. Turton, R. H.
MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. Ropner, Colonel L. Wakefield, W. W.
M'Connell, Sir J. Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry) Walker-Smith, Sir J.
McCorquodale, M. S. Rose Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight) Rowlands, G, Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)
McEwen, Capt. J. H. F. Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R. Wayland, Sir W. A
McKie, J. H. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A. Webbe, Sir W. Harold
Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees) Russell, Sir Alexander Wedderburn, H. J. S.
Macnamara, Lieut.-Colonel J. R, J. Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.
Manningham-Buller, Sir M. Salmon, Sir I. Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, S)
Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Salt, E. W. Willoughby de Eresby Lord
Markham, S. F. Samuel, M. R. A. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.
Maxwell, Hon. S. A. Selley, H. R. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Shakespeare, G. H. Wise, A. R.
Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick) Shepperson, Sir E. W. Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C.
Mitcheson, Sir G. G. Shute, Colonel Sir J. J. York, C.
Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R. Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D. Young, A. S. L. (Partick)
Moreing, A. C. Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)
Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.) Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Morris-Jones, Sir Henry Smithers, Sir W. Captain Waterhouse and Lieut.-
Colonel Kerr.
NOES.
Adams, D. (Consett) Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) Quibell, D. J. K.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)
Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford) Harris, Sir P. A. Ridley, G.
Adamson, W. M. Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.) Riley, B.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) Hayday, A. Ritson, J.
Ammon, C. G. Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)
Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) Henderson, J. (Ardwick) Rothschild, J. A. de
Barnes, A. J. Henderson, T. (Tradeston) Seely, Sir H. M.
Batey, J. Hills, A. (Pontefract) Sexton, T. M.
Bellenger, F. J. Hopkin, D. Shinwell, E.
Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W. Horabin, T. L. Silkin, L.
Benson, G. Jagger, J. Silverman, S. S.
Bevan, A. John, W. Simpson, F. B.
Buchanan, G. Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)
Cape, T. Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. Smith, E. (Stoke)
Cluse, W. S. Kirby, B. V. Smith, T. (Normanton)
Cocks, F. S. Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G. Sorensen, R. W.
Cove, W. G. Lathan, G Stephen, C.
Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford Lawson, J. J. Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'-n-le-Sp'ng)
Daggar, G. Lee, F. Summerskill, Dr. Edith
Dalton, H. Leslie, J. R. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Logan, D. G. Thurtle, E.
Day, H. McEntee, V. La T. Tinker, J. J.
Dobbie, W. McGhee, H. G. Viant, S. P.
Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) MacLaren, A. Walkden, A. G.
Ede, J. C. Maclean, N. Watkins, F. C.
Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) Watson, W. McL.
Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) Mainwaring, W. H. Westwood, J.
Edwards, N. (Caerphilly) Mathers, G. White, H. Graham
Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales) Maxton, J. Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)
Foot, D. M. Messer, F. Wilkinson, Ellen
Frankel, D. Milner, Major J. Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Gallacher, W. Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Williams, T. (Don Valley)
Gardner, B. W. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wilmot, John
Garro Jones, G. M Naylor, T. E. Windsor, W. (Hull. C.)
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) Oliver, G. H. Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)
Gibson, R. (Greenock) Paling, W. Young, Sir R. (Newton)
Green, W. H. (Deptford) Parker, J.
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. Pethick-Lawrence Rt. Hon. F. W. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Grenfell, D. R. Poole, C. C. Mr. Charleton and Mr. Groves.
Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) Pritt, D. N.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 3.—(Transitional provision for compensation in respect of goods in transit after discharge or before shipment.)

Amendment made: In page 4, line 19, leave out from "and," to the end of line 20, and insert "their destination."—[Mr. Stanley.]

10.55 p.m.

Mr. Shinwell

I beg to move, in page 4, line 36, to leave out from "amount" to "in," in line 37, and to insert "calculated."

I suggest that we might take this Amendment and the one that follows together.

The Chairman

The second Amendment is consequential.

Mr. Shinwell

Yes, Sir Dennis. The point that concerns us on these benches in these two Amendments was debated on the first Amendment which we moved to Clause I and relates to the question of liability. We object to the Board of Trade accepting the whole of the liability that is likely to be incurred. In our view the Board of Trade will not be able to

accept the whole liability, if there is considerable damage. Having stated that position on the first Amendment and having been defeated, I merely repeat our argument on these Amendments, and we propose to proceed to a Division.

10.56 p.m.

Mr. Cross

The hon. Member has moved his Amendment with brevity, and I will reply equally briefly. My right hon. Friend has already given reasons why the previous Amendment could not be accepted, and I will not take up time by repeating the argument on these Amendments. The purpose of the Clause is to maintain a flow of goods in peace time by guaranteeing the trader that he will not incur loss in the early days of a war. After that there are insurance provisions. Unless this guarantee were given a series of evil consequences would flow, such as unemployment, reduction of stocks, and so on. For these reasons, the Government cannot accept the Amendment.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 234; Noes, 108.

Division No. 273.] AYES. [10.59 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Ll.-Col. G. J. Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead) Erskine-Hill, A. G.
Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) Clydesdale, Marquess of Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)
Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)
Albery, Sir Irving Colman, N. C. D. Everard, Sir William Lindsay
Allan, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead) Colville, Rt.(. Hon. John Findlay, Sir E.
Allan, Lt.-Col. Sir W. J. (Armagh) Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.) Fleming, E. L.
Amery, fit. Hon. L. C. M. S. Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) Fool, D. M.
Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.) Cox, H. B. Trevor Fremantle, Sir F. E.
Apsley, Lord Craven-Ellis, W. Furness, S. N.
Aske, Sir R. W. Critchley, A. Fyfe, D. P. M.
Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover) Crooke, Sir J. Smedley George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)
Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton) Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. Glyn, Major Sir R. G. G.
Baillie, Sir A. W. M. Cross, R. H. Goldie, N. B.
Baldwin-Webb, Col. J. Crossley, A. C. Gower, Sir R. V.
Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) Crowder, J. F. E. Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)
Balniel, Lord Cruddas, Col. B. Granville, E. L.
Baxter, A. Beverley Culverwell, C. T. Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Davidson, Viscountess Gridley, Sir A. B.
Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) Davies, C. (Montgomery) Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)
Beechman, N. A. De Chair, S. S. Grigg, Sir E. W. M.
Bernays, R. H. Denman, Hon. R. D. Grimston, R. V.
Bossom, A. C. Danville, Alfred Hambro, A. V.
Boulton, W. W. Doland. G. F. Hannah, I. C.
Bower, Comdr. R. T. Dorman-Smith, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir Ft. H. Hannon, Sir P. J. H.
Boyce, H. Leslie Dower, Lieut.-Col. A. V. G. Harris, Sir P. A.
Bracken, B. Drewe, C. Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)
Braithwaite, J. Gurney (Holderness) Dugdale, Captain T. L. Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.
Broadbridge, Sir G. T. Duggan, H. J. Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-
Brocklebank, Sir Edmund Duncan, J. A. L. Hepworth, J.
Brooks, H. (Lewisham, W.) Dunglass, Lord Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.)
Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.) Eckersley, P. T. Holdsworth, H.
Bullock, Capt. M. Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Holmes, J. S.
Campbell, Sir E. T. Ellis, Sir G. Horabin, T. L.
Cartland, J. R. H. Elliston, Capt. G. S. Horsbrugh, Florence
Carver, Major W. H. Emery, J. F. Howitt, Dr. A. B.
Cary, R. A. Emrys-Evans, P. V. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack.. N.)
Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) Errington, E. Hume, Sir G. H.
Hunloke, H. P. Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) Somerset, T.
Hutchinson, G. C. Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J. Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald
James, Wing-Commander A. W. H. Munro, P. Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.
Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n) Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H. Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.
Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth) Nicholson, G. (Farnham) Spens. W. P.
Keeling, E. H. Nicolson, Hon. H. G. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'ld)
Kellett, Major E. O. O'Connor, Sir Terence. J. Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)
Kerr, Sir John Graham (Sco'sh Univ's.) O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh Strickland, Captain W. F.
Lamb, Sir J. Q. Orr-Ewing, I, L. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)
Latham, Sir P. Peake, O. Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Leach, Sir J. W. Petherick, M. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.
Lees-Jones, J. Pickthorn, K. W. M. Sutcliffe, H.
Leighton, Major B. E. P. Ponsonby, Col. C. E. Tasker, Sir R. I.
Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. Procter, Major H. A. Taylor, C, S. (Eastbourne)
Lindsay, K. M. Ramsay, Captain A. H. M. Thorneycroft, G. E. P.
Lipson, D. L. Ramsden, Sir E. Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.
Little, Sir E. Graham- Rankin, Sir R. Titchfield, Marquess of
Llewellin, Colonel J. J. Read, A. C. (Exeter) Touche, G. C.
Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S. Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury) Tree, A. R. L. F.
Loftus. P. C. Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead) Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R, L.
Loftus, P. C. Remer, J. R. Turton, R. H.
Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) Ropner, Colonel L. Wakefield, W. W.
MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. Rosa, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry) Walker-Smith, Sir J.
M'Connell, Sir J. Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
McCorquodale, M. S. Rothschild, J. A. de Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)
Macdonald. Capt. P. (Isle of Wight) Rowlands, G. Waterhouse, Captain C.
McEwen, Capt. J. H. F. Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R. Wayland, Sir W. A.
McKie, J. H. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A. Webbe, Sir W. Harold
Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees) Russell, Sir Alexander Wedderburn, H. J. S.
Macnamara, Lieut.-Colonel J. R. J, Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) White, H. Graham
Manningham-Buller, Sir M. Salmon, Sir I. Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.
Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Salt, E. W. Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, S.)
Markham, S. F. Samuel, M. R. A. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Maxwell, Hon. S. A. Schuster, Sir G. E. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.
Medlicott, F. Seely, Sir H. M. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Selley, H. R. Wise, A. R.
Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick) Shakespeare, G. H. Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C.
Mitcheson, Sir G. G. Shepperson, Sir E. W. York, C.
Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R. Shuts, Colonel Sir J. J. Young, A. S. L. (Partick)
Moreing, A. C. Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)
Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.) Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Morris-Jones, Sir Henry Snadden, W. McN. Lieut.-Colonel Kerr and Major
Sir James Edmondson.
NOES.
Adams, D. (Consett) Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) Pools, C. C.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Pritt, D. N.
Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford) Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.) Quibell, D. J. K.
Alexander, HI. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) Hayday, A. Ridley, G.
Ammon, C. G. Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) Riley, B.
Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) Henderson, J. (Ardwick) Ritson, J.
Barnes, A. J. Henderson, T. (Tradeston) Robinson, W. A. (St. Helena)
Batty, J. Hills, A. (Pontefract) Sexton, T. M.
Bellenger, F. J. Hopkin, D. Shinwell, E.
Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W. Jagger, J. Silkin, L.
Benson, G. John, W. Silverman, S. S.
Bevan, A. Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. Simpson, F. S.
Buchanan, G. Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)
Cape, T. Kirby, B. V. Smith, E. (Stoke)
Charleton, H. C. Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G. Smith, T. (Normanton)
Cluse, W. S. Lathan, G. Sorensen, R. W.
Cooks, F. S. Lawton, J. J. Stephen, C.
Cove, W. G. Lee, F. Stewart, W. J. (H'ght' n-le-Sp'ng)
Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford Leslie, J. R. Summerskill, Dr. Edith
Daggar, G. Logan, O. G. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Dalton, H. McEntee, V. La T. Tinker, J. J.
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) McGhee, H. G. Viant, S. P.
Day, H. MacLaren, A. Walkden, A. Q.
Dabble, W. Maclean, N. Watkins, F. C.
Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) MacMillan, M. (Western Islet) Watson, W. McL.
Ed., J. C. Mainwaring, W. H. Westwood, J.
Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) Mathers, G. Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)
Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwelty) Maxton, J. Wilkinson, Elian
Edwards, N. (Caerphilly) Messer, F. Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Frankel, O. Milner, Major J. Williams, T. (Don Valley)
Gallacher, W. Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Wilmot, John
Gardner, B. W. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
Garro Jones, G. M. Naylor, T. E. Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)
Gibson, R. (Greenock) Oliver, G. H. Young, Sir R. (Newton)
Green, W. H. (Deptford) Paling, W.
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. Parker, J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Grenfell, D. R. Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W. Mr. Groves and Mr. Adamson.

Question put, and agreed to.

Amendments made:

In page 5, line 6, leave out "Great Britain, Northern Ireland," and insert "the United Kingdom."

In line 23, leave out from "the," to end of line 24, and insert "destination of the goods is."

In line 30, leave out from "the," to end of line 31, and insert "destination of the goods is." —[Mr. Stanley.]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 4.—(Liabilities of re-insurer in the event of insurer's insolvency.)

11.8 p.m.

Mr. Stanley

I beg to move, in page 6, line 10, at the end, to insert: or a receiver is appointed on behalf of the holders of any debentures of the company secured by a floating charge or possession is taken by or on behalf of the holders of such debentures of any property comprised in or subject to the charge. This Clause is designed to ensure that when the re-insurer is called upon for payment of loss, in the case of the bankruptcy of the insurer the money shall go straight to the insured. In drafting the original Clause, we overlooked a particular method of insolvency, and this Amendment fills in that gap.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 5. —(Exemption of certain bodies from Section 357 of Companies Act, 1929.)

11.9 p.m.

Colonel Sandeman Allen

I beg to move, in page 6, line 30, at the end, to add: (2) This Section shall be deemed to have come into operation on the twentieth day of February, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine. This manuscript Amendment is worded the same as Sub-section (4) of Clause 1, and it brings this Clause into line with Clause 1. A war risks insurance pool has been in existence since 13th April, 1939, and, therefore, it has been illegal under the Companies Act since that date. It is to legalise the position that I move this Amendment.

11.10 p.m.

Mr. Stanley

Clause 5 is specially designed in order to take out of the purview of some Sections of the Companies Act the special pool which has been set up for the re-insurance of cargoes against King's Enemy Risks. As I explained on the Second Reading, it was necessary in the very troubled conditions of middle April to bring this scheme into provisional operation at once. In Clause I we antedated the Bill for one purpose. I regret that we did not ante-date the operation of this Clause at the same time, but the Amendment will remedy that omission.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

11.11 p.m.

Mr. Alexander

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the Committee, in connection with this section of the Companies Act, whether all the other associations are also illegal, and, if so, what steps he proposes to take in regard to them?

Mr. Stanley

I do not think the other associations are outside the scope, but I will verify that before another stage.