HC Deb 07 July 1939 vol 349 cc1768-75

Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69.

[Sir DENNIS HERBERT IN THE CHAIR.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to authorise certain payments out of the Exchequer to milk marketing boards in respect of certain milk, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament—

(a)to milk marketing boards by which payments are or have been made to producers in respect of accredited milk, standard milk, tuberculin tested milk, certified milk or milk from attested herds, being in any case milk sold or used at any time during the two years ending with the thirtieth day of September, nineteen hundred and forty, of sums in respect of that milk in accordance with the tables at the end of this Resolution;

(b)to any milk marketing board which, in respect of any period between the first day of October, nineteen hundred and thirty-eight, and the beginning of October, nineteen hundred and forty, gives effect or has given effect to approved arrangements for increasing the demand for milk by the sale thereof at a reduced price for consumption—

(i) by pupils who attend recognised public elementary, secondary or day schools and persons under eighteen who attend other schools or institutions or undergo courses of instruction; or

(ii) by expectant or nursing mothers or children under five,

of sums not exceeding the loss incurred by the board in carrying out the arrangements;

(c)to milk marketing boards, in respect of milk used in manufacturing butter or cheese during the two years ending with the thirtieth day of September, nineteen hundred and forty, of sums calculated, in the case of milk used for butter, by reference to the amount by which the price of imported butter falls, in a winter half-year, below one hundred and twenty-five shillings per hundredweight, and, in a summer half- year, below one hundred and fifteen shillings per hundredweight, and in the case of milk used for cheese, by reference to the amount by which the price of imported cheese falls, in a winter half-year, below sixty-seven shillings and sixpence per hundredweight, and, in a summer half-year, below sixty-two shillings and sixpence per hundredweight, so however that the payments for any year shall not be made in respect of more than two hundred and fifty million gallons of milk in all;

(d)of the administrative expenses incurred for the purposes of the said Act by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Secretary of State;

and to authorise the payment into the Exchequer of any sums received under the said Act by any Minister of the Crown.

Table I.

Milk produced in England which is sold otherwise than by retail or semi-retail or is used in manufacturing cheese at a farm, and milk produced in Scotland sold to or through a milk marketing board or used in manufacturing cheese at a farm.

Kind of Milk. Scale of Exchequer Contributions. (Pence per Gallon.)
All Tuberculin Tested or Certified Milk, and milk from an attested herd which is Accredited or Standard Milk 1½
Accredited or Standard Milk which is not Tuberculin Tested or Certified Milk and is not milk from an attested herd ½
Milk from an attested herd which is not Accredited, Standard, Tuberculin Tested or Certified Milk ½

3.41 p.m.

Sir R. Dorman-Smith

I should, perhaps, say a few words in explanation of the paragraphs of this Resolution. The first Paragraph (a) provides for Exchequer contributions during the two years ending 30th September, 1940, towards quality milk, and there is set out in Tables I and II what those scales of contributions are to be. I tried to explain in my earlier speech the difference between the scales. One deals with producer-retailers and the other with wholesalers and those who sell milk to a milk marketing board. It is estimated that the cost of these provisions to the Exchequer will be £1,900,000 in respect of the year 1938–39, and £2,200,000 in respect of the year ending 30th September, 1940. Paragraph (b) deals with the question of the losses sustained by milk marketing boards in respect of cheap milk schemes, both in the case of schools and under other schemes. It is expected that there will be a payment in respect of the current year of some £75,000 which will be additional to expenditure of over £700,000 already authorised by existing legislation. It is expected that the expenditure on the cheap milk schemes for 1939–40 will be round about £1,000,000, but there is no limit to that.

Paragraph (c) deals with milk for manufacture, which has been referred to in previous Debates. There is one point I should mention. The total payments are limited to payments in respect of 250,000,000 gallons of milk, divided equally between milk for butter and milk for cheese. Paragraph (d) deals with expenses. The Resolution provides that any moneys received by Ministers under the Bill shall be paid into the Exchequer. This refers to possible repayments of moneys received by a board under sections 1 to 3 of the Milk Act, 1934, in respect of milk used for manufacture during any part of the year 1st October, 1938, to 30th September, 1939, for which that board qualifies for Exchequer contributions towards the cost of quality premiums, and accordingly for assistance on milk for manufacture into butter or cheese under the provisions of the new Bill. The amount of such repayments is estimated at about £70,000. This is an adjustment between the new formula and the old.

3.44 p.m.

Dr. Guest

In view of what has been said by the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland we are disturbed as to the Government attitude on the matter to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) referred. On this side of the House we have been studiously moderate in our criticism of the Bill and have tried to say nothing which would embarrass the passing of the Bill, although we recognise its limitations are very serious indeed. But we are now faced with a situation which calls for further comment: What is the country as a whole getting in exchange for these contributions? Ought there not to be some definite protection for the community against the possibility of infection? We ought to have a guarantee that the milk which is to be sold is of a sufficiently high quality not to cause disease. I myself have studiously refrained from dealing with that aspect of the matter during the Second Reading Debate, but the Minister knows that the amount of tuberculous milk sold is a menace to the health of the community.

3.46 p.m.

Sir R. Dorman-Smith

What we want to do is to encourage the improvement of milk. I do not know whether the hon. Member would say that pasteurisation would do away with all milk-borne disease. We are getting on with the eradication of tuberculosis as much as we can. Surely it is better to try to do it by encouragement on the proper basis than by the doubtful expedient of general pasteurisation. As far as the Government are concerned, it is well known that the pasteurisation Clause in the previous Bill was one of the most controversial Clauses of the whole lot. That has been reconsidered, and it is perfectly clear that it is not everybody's opinion, by any manner of means, that pasteurisation provisions are either necessary or desirable. The Government's attitude is perfectly clear. It is open for any local authority to present a Bill now, and the Government will have to deal with it on its merits when it is presented. The Government would need to have at least some safeguards with regard to the production of milk such as were adumbrated in the other Bill. Most hon. Members will say that it is only right that consumers, if they desire pasteurised milk, should be able to buy that milk. If any local authority presents a Bill, the Ministry of Health will deal with it as sympathetically as may be.

Mr. W. Roberts

What is the standard milk?

Sir R. Dorman-Smith

It is the Scottish equivalent of accredited.

3.48 p.m.

Mr. Alexander

I am wholly disappointed with the method of the Government in announcing their policy in this matter. This is the first stage on which we have had an opportunity of getting the Government's policy for the future on pasteurisation. We were told, first, that this was a temporary Bill, and that we were dealing with grants only on Clauses 1 to 3. Now, on pressure, we find that the agricultural side of the Government, at any rate, is taking the side of those opposed to pasteurisation, and leaving it to the initiative of local authorities to promote legislation, and that any local authority which produces a Bill will have to provide for its area at its own expense, under its own legislation. Where are all the safeguards that the Government proposed, as a national authority, in their Bill last year? This is a very grave, retrograde step, and we have had to wait until the end of this Debate in order to get the information. I am very much disturbed. Considering what is being achieved by a sound system of pasteurisation in regard to the reduction of mortality, especially in our infant population, I was surprised that the Minister of Agriculture could plead on this matter the authority of the Minister of Health in the way he has done.

Brigadier-General Brown

Hear, hear.

Mr. Alexander

The hon. and gallant Member, who speaks so well for the agricultural interests, says, "Hear, hear." Of course, he does. I can understand it, seeing the interests he represents. I beg of the Government before the later stages of the Bill to think once, twice and thrice if they want our help to get the Bill through quickly. We are entitled to a debate now that they have changed their policy since last year. We have been very reasonable with the Government to-day, and we want them to get the Bill, but this is an amazing announcement of policy at this stage in the discussion, and I hope that the Government will give some consideration to the views of the people who are interested.

3.51 p.m.

Brigadier-General Brown

As the hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) referred to me, does he not think that it is a better policy to take the disease from the herds in this country than to have any machinery which takes the disease out of the milk? Surely the Bill goes to the root of the question of encouraging attested herds. That is the only reason why I interrupted the right hon. Gentleman. A sound milk policy of any Government should begin with attested herds, and I hope that some day we shall have all the cows kept free from disease.

Mr. J. J. Davidson

Will an official statement be issued by the Government to local authorities who desire pasteurization schemes so that they may understand the position?

3.52 P.m.

Sir Francis Fremantle

I want to make an appeal on that matter. We medical men have been very careful to recognise the difficulties of the Government. Agriculturists should realise when they are calling for publicity in order to get the industry back to prosperity that their chief agents are medical men. Medical men are practically unanimous that milk can be rendered safe. The medical men would be their chief publicists, but agriculturists should not take the line of pretending to put forward criticisms on matters that they cannot understand in the same way as the Committees that have reported again and again on this subject. The Minister of Agriculture has said that he cannot go any further, and that the question must be brought forward by the Minister of Health. Does the Minister of Health intend to leave it to each different local authority?

The Chairman

That is not a question that can be discussed at length now. We cannot have a debate on the merits or otherwise of pasteurization and of matters which affect the Ministry of Health and not the Ministry of Agriculture.

Sir F. Fremantle

As the matter has been raised already by the Minister himself as a matter of policy I wanted it to be made clear whether, in the Bill that is to be introduced to deal with pasteurization, proper safeguards are to be introduced by each local authority separately, which was suggested by the right hon. gentleman opposite from his reading of what the Minister of Agriculture had said, or does it mean that the Government intend to bring forward this matter and to give local authorities these facilities? This is a serious question. The leaving of the matter to each local authority is not, I hope, the meaning of what the Minister said.

Sir R. Dorman-Smith

The Government have not seen fit to introduce pasteurisation into this temporary legislation. The whole question of milk policy is under consideration with a view to bringing in legislation at a later date.

Pasteurisation may be dealt with in another way. I will not give any undertaking that it will be dealt with until 1940. It may be dealt with by 1940. Nor will I say whether a policy of pasteurisation will actually be adopted. I have said that the whole of this policy is being reconsidered from a comprehensive point of view, and it would be clearly wrong in this interim Measure to bring in any permanent Measure dealing with pasteurisation.

Mr. Davidson

In view of the fact that the last Milk Bill was dropped and that local authorities who desired these pasteurisation schemes to take place were left under a complete misapprehension, will the right hon. Gentleman circulate a statement informing local authorities that if they so desire they must formulate a local scheme?

Sir R. Dorman-Smith

I will bring that suggestion to the notice of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported upon Monday next.