HC Deb 27 February 1939 vol 344 cc871-82
13. Mr. Arthur Henderson

asked the Prime Minister whether Sir Robert Hodgson is participating in the negotiations now being conducted between M. Berard, the French envoy, and the Spanish insurgent authorities; and whether he can make a statement on such negotiations?

17. Mr. Kennedy

asked the Prime Minister when a report may be expected of the negotiations now proceeding with the Spanish insurgent authorities; how many European Powers have been taking part in those negotiations; and whether the interests of the Spanish Republican Government are being suitably voiced and protected?

31. Mr. Sorensen

asked the Prime Minister whether he will give an assurance to the House that in any consideration of the question of recognising the Burgos authorities he will give priority, before matters of strategic importance to this country, to the need of securing guarantees from the Burgos authorities that they will not execute death sentences or inflict imprisonment or suffering upon supporters of the Spanish Government?

34. Lieut-Commander Fletcher

asked the Prime Minister what instructions have been sent to His Majesty's agent at Burgos concerning discussion of peace terms in Spain with the Burgos authorities and what reply those authorities have made to proposals that the peace terms should include withdrawal of foreign nationals from Spain and a general amnesty?

36. Mr. J. J. Davidson

asked the Prime Minister whether he will state the nature of the consultations between His Majesty's Government and the French Government with regard to the recognition of General Franco; and whether His Majesty's Government are now fully informed of the French Government's decision?

38. Mr. G. Strauss

asked the Prime Minister whether he can now make any statement concerning the recognition of General Franco by His Majesty's Government?

39. Miss Wilkinson

asked the Prime Minister whether he can now make a statement regarding the position of the negotiations with General Franco?

The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain)

Perhaps the hon. Members will be good enough to await the statement which I propose to make at the end of Questions.

Later—

The Prime Minister

His Majesty's Government have given very careful consideration to the position in Spain and to the action they should take in the light of all the information at their disposal. As a result of the fall of Barcelona and the over-running of Catalonia, General Franco is now in control of the greater part of Spanish territory both on and beyond the main land. Included in this territory are the most important industrial centres in Spain and the sources of most of her productions. Even if the Republican forces in the Southern sector should continue to maintain some show of resistance, there can be no doubt now of the ultimate issue of the struggle, the prolongation of which can only result in further suffering and loss of life.

Moreover, it seems to His Majesty's Government impossible to regard the Spanish Republican Government, scattered as it is and no longer exercising settled authority, as the Sovereign Government of Spain. In these circumstances, they have decided to inform General Franco of their decision to recognise his Government as the Government of Spain and formal action has been taken in this sense to-day. I understand that the French Government also will be announcing their decision on this question to-day. His Majesty's Government have noted with satisfaction the public statements of General Franco concerning the determination of himself and his Government to secure the traditional independence of Spain and to take proceedings only in the case of those against whom criminal charges are laid.

Mr. Attlee

In view of the statement that was made by M. Daladier in the French Chamber, may I ask the Prime Minister what was the date on which the Government came to this decision?

The Prime Minister

I should like notice of that question.

Mr. Attlee

May I recall to the right hon. Gentleman's attention the question which I put to him on Thursday last: Whether the Government have come to any decision with respect to recognition of the Spanish insurgent authorities; and, if so, will he state the nature of this decision? The Prime Minister replied: I regret that I am not in a position to add to previous statements on this subject." —[OFFICIAL REPORT,23rd February, 1935; col. 573, Vol. 344.] On 14th February, the right hon. Gentle man informed this House that: His Majesty's Government will naturally communicate to the House at the earliest possible moment any decision at which they may arrive."—OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th February, 1939; col. 1561, Vol. 343.] I am asking how it came about that the French Government and the French Chamber should be informed while the right hon. Gentleman refused to reply to a question in this House?

The Prime Minister

I think the position is perfectly simple. I was not certain what was the object of the right hon. Gentleman's question to me just now, but I may tell him that the British Government decided to leave in the hands of my Noble Friend the Foreign Secretary and myself the final decision as to the recognition of General Franco. The final decision was taken over the week-end.

Mr. Attlee

I understand from the right hon. Gentleman that this decision has been taken over the week-end. Then was the Press mistaken about the statement alleged to have been made by the French Prime Minister that he had been in consultation with the right hon. Gentle man for days, and that the decision had been taken in time for him to make a statement on Friday—before the week end—in the French Chamber. Is that wrong?

The Prime Minister

I cannot be cross-examined about the particular hours and moments when these decisions were taken without having any notice or opportunity to make certain that the answers I may give are accurate answers.

Mr. Gallacher

You should be impeached as a traitor to Britain.

Hon. Members

"Order! "

Mr. Attlee

The issue is much bigger than the right hon. Gentleman seems to think. The issue is that the right hon. Gentleman is not entitled to mislead this House. He now tells us that a decision was taken by the Government relative to the recognition of Franco, and that he was empowered to take the decision at any time. That was a decision of the Government. The right hon. Gentleman refused to give any answer with regard to the decision of the Government on Thursday, and that enabled the right hon. Gentleman to get away without a Debate in this House last week. He was mis- leading the House as no Prime Minister has ever done before. Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to say when this decision was reached? Does he not think that this House has a right to be told of a decision before the announcement is made in the Parliament in another country?

The Prime Minister

I have not misled the House in any way. I have made the position perfectly clear. The statement, at the time when I made it, was perfectly accurate.

Mr. Attlee

Will the right hon. Gentleman say that he is the Government? There could be no decision taken by the right hon. Gentleman himself. Is it not a fact that the effective decision taken by the Government was taken before that question was asked by me on Thursday?

The Prime Minister

The position is exactly as I have stated it.

Mr. Attlee

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer that question? Was an effective decision taken by the Cabinet before I asked that question on Thurs day?

The Prime Minister

If an effective decision had been taken I should have said so. I said it had not been taken.

Mr. Attlee

Does the Prime Minister act without any consultation with the Cabinet? The House is entitled to know how the right hon. Gentleman acted in this matter seeing that this House was refused an opportunity of debate and in formation which was accorded to the Prime Minister of another country?

The Prime Minister

That is not so. I have said already that the decision on this matter was left in the hands of my right hon. Friend and myself.

Mr. Attlee

Is it not clear that that is an evasion of the whole question? I can only say that in future I will give notice to the right hon. Gentleman, and when I put a question on foreign affairs I shall have to arrange that a question be put in another place, where I shall be sure that I shall have a proper answer.

Sir Archibald Sinclair

Does the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister mean that the decision was taken to recognise General Franco, but that the time was left to the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, or does he mean that the decision was left to the Prime Minister and the Secretary for Foreign Affairs as to whether General Franco was to be recognised or not?

The Prime Minister

No, Sir, the decision had not actually been taken by the Government to recognise General Franco. It was quite clear that recognition would have to come sooner or later, and it was left to us to consult with the French Government to decide whether, and if so when, recognition should be given.

Mr. A. Henderson

Is the House to understand that this recognition of General Franco is unconditional so far as the presence of foreign troops in Spain is concerned, or have the Government received assurances from General Franco that these foreign troops will be with drawn, and when?

The Prime Minister

Certain assurances have been received, but the recognition is unconditional.

Mr. Attlee

Does this recognition of General Franco mean the cancellation of the recognition of the Republican Government of Spain, which is recognised and represented in the League of Nations?

The Prime Minister

That most certainly follows.

Mr. Attlee

Is the Prime Minister pre pared to give a date for the House to debate this matter—to-morrow?

The Prime Minister

Yes, Sir, I am prepared to meet the right hon. Gentleman's request, and will set apart tomorrow for the Debate on his Motion. This will necessitate a rearrangement of the business for the remainder of the week. The Debate on the Supplementary Estimates for the Privy Seal Office, Air Raid Precautionary Services and Ministry of Labour (National Service) will now take place on Wednesday and Thursday. In addition, on Thursday, it will be necessary for us to obtain the Committee stage of the Defence Loans Bill.

Sir Francis Fremantle

May I ask a question arising out of that?

Mr. Speaker

Does the hon. Member desire to ask a question about the business?

Sir F. Fremantle

Yes, Sir. Will the last stage of the Cancer Bill be taken on Thursday?

The Prime Minister

No, Sir.

4. Mr. Thorne

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government's representative in Catalonia has reported the dropping of bombs concealed in chocolate boxes by Italian planes in the service of General Franco during the Catalan re treat; and whether he has any information as to how many children were found with mutilated hands and faces caused by these boxes?

The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Butler)

My Noble Friend has no confirmation of this allegation. I understand, however, that children have been injured while playing with unused ammunition left lying in roads and squares by the Spanish forces of either side.

Sir A. Knox

Is not this question a typical instance of the poisonous propaganda that is being spread about?

Mr. Thorne

Is it not true that the testimony of an hon. Lady, formerly a Member of this House, bears out the contention in the question?

Mr. Butler

We have made inquiries of our representatives in the area of fighting, and this is the only information they can give my Noble Friend.

Mr. Thorne

Is it true that I have to ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman behind me what questions I can put on the Paper?

7. Mr. Noel-Baker

asked the Prime Minister whether he can make a statement concerning the attacks made by General Franco's aircraft on the British ship "Stanbrook" on 23rd January last, when the "Stanbrook" was on the high seas off Barcelona?

Mr. Butler

On 21st January the steamship "Stanbrook," when off Barcelona, was the object of attack by aircraft. About 24 bombs were dropped, but the ship was not directly hit. The aircraft appeared from the direction of Barcelona, where aerial bombardments had been proceeding earlier that morning. The master reported that he was about seven miles from Barcelona and in consequence of the attacks he diverted the ship from that port and proceeded to Port Vendres. The Acting British Agent was at once instructed to protest against these attacks on a British ship on the high seas.

Mr. Noel-Baker

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that three attacks were made over a series of hours, and does he propose to claim compensation from General Franco?

Mr. Butler

There was a series of attacks, but the ship was not damaged.

Mr. Shinwell

Has General Franco replied to the protest that was sent by His Majesty's Government?

Mr. Butler

We have had no satisfaction.

Mr. Shinwell

Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that the Government have had no satisfaction?

Mr. Butler

Yes, Sir.

Mr. Shinwell

What do the Government propose to do about it?

Mr. Butler

We propose to continue to press for satisfaction in this case.

Mr. A. V. Alexander

Were there any British warships in the vicinity, so far away from territorial waters?

Mr. Butler

I believe there were, but I should want notice of that question in order to give exact information.

Mr. Noel-Baker

Is the right hon Gentleman aware that the captain appealed to His Majesty's Ship "Devonshire," which was 20 miles away, but it took three and a half hours for it to reach him?

Mr. Butler

I should require notice of that question in order to give exact information.

15. Mr. Kennedy

asked the Prime Minister whether at any recent meetings of the League of Nations, the Spanish situation has been considered; and whether any action has been proposed to deal with the intervention of foreign Powers and the supply of men and munitions to the insurgent authorities?

Mr. Butler

At its meeting in January the Council of the League of Nations considered the provisional report of the League Commission sent to Spain to verify the withdrawal of foreign volunteers at the request of the Spanish Government. It also discussed the report prepared by Sir Denys Bray and Mr. Webster on the food situation in Spain and the reports of the British Commission for the investigation of air bombardment in Spain. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

28. Brigadier-General Sir Henry Croft

asked the Prime Minister whether the attention of the Commission of Inquiry into air attacks in Spain has now been called to the total air casualties inflicted upon civilians in Nationalist Spain; and have they yet made a report to him?

Mr. Butler

I understand that the Com mission of Inquiry has not been furnished with this information.

29. Sir H. Croft

asked the Prime Minister, whether in the course of the recent discussions with the French Government, he was informed of the numbers of aircraft which took refuge in France during the Catalonia offensive, and the countries of origin of those machines?

Mr. Butler

My Noble Friend has received no information on this subject from the French Government.

Sir H. Croft

Will any steps be taken to ascertain the country of origin of these aeroplanes?

Mr. Butler

We should have to obtain the agreement of the French Government before I could give any information on the subject.

Miss Wilkinson

Would it be possible also to discuss whether these machines are bought and paid for by the Spanish Government in the ordinary way, and not brought in, in defiance of the Non-intervention Agreement?

Mr. Butler

That is one of the difficulties which would arise. I will consider the matter.

30. Sir H. Croft

asked the Prime Minister whether the International Commission has yet made a report on the three inter national brigades which were identified as fighting in the Catalonian operations some months after the statements of Senor Negrin and Senor del Vayo that all international brigades had left Spain; and whether he will call for a report on the captured orders, indicating that the nth. 13th and 15th brigades, composed of German, Austrian, Polish, Hungarian, Czech-Balkan and Latin-American units, were being reorganised on 25th January?

Mr. Butler

The provisional report of the League Commission was made on 15th January and does not, therefore, cover the period referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend. As regards the second part of the question, I would prefer to await the final report of the Commission which is expected shortly.

Sir H. Croft

Is it not a fact that orders have been captured showing that, in January, these forces were being re organised?

Mr. Butler

We must await the final report of the Commission before I can give any definite reply.

Miss Rathbone

Did not the report of the Commission in January give the answer to that question by showing that the International Brigade on being dismissed was immobilised and placed under constant supervision and that effective measures were taken at the frontier to prevent the re-entry—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Lady is really making a speech.

Mr. Gallacher

On a point of Order. Avery important series of questions is asked, and the material is now in the Library, and the hon. Member is trying to put, in the form of a question to the Minister, what is very relevant and important information for this House, but it seems to me that it was hooliganism on the other side which——

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member had better put the question on the Paper.

Mr. Silverman

On the point of Order. I do not know in what position you were to hear the hon. Lady's questions, and to say whether or not they were in order, but I was much closer to her, and yet in view of the interruptions, was entirely unable to hear the words she was using.

Mr. Speaker

My objection was not to the substance of the hon. Lady's question, but to its length.

37. Mr. G. Strauss

asked the Prime Minister whether the "Stangrove" has now been released by General Franco?

Mr. Butler

Orders were issued by the Burgos Authorities on 24th February that the steamship "Stangrove" was to be released. I regret, however, to inform the House that this ship had dragged its anchor in a strong south-westerly gale during the evening of 23rd February and was wrecked on the rocks in the inner harbour at Palma. I much regret to say that the master, who refused to leave his ship, was subsequently found dead in his cabin. The remainder of the crew are safe.

Mr. Strauss

Will there be some inquiry into the rather extraordinary circumstances of this incident?

Mr. Butler

Yes, Sir. It is intended to summon a naval court at Palma to investigate the circumstances attending the loss of this ship and the death of her master.

Mr. W. Roberts

Was the information provided by our representative at Palma or by the Nationalist authorities?

Mr. Butler

As far as I am aware, this information was provided by our representative, with whom we have been in close touch in this unfortunate case.

Miss Wilkinson

Is there any difference between our representative at Palma and the Nationalist authorities?

Mr. Butler

Yes, certainly. Our representative represents British interests in the most able manner.

41. Mr. Noel-Baker

asked the Prime Minister whether he can make a statement concerning the conditions in the Spanish refugee camps at Perpignan; and whether he proposes to make any further grant of assistance?

35. Lieut.-Commander Fletcher

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the misery existing in the refugee camps in France; that rain proof shelter exists for only 10 per cent. of the refugees; that medical services are rudimentary; that a third of the refugees are suffering from stomach troubles owing to food, and that no possibility exists of isolating infectious diseases such as scabies; and whether he will, in consultation with the French Government, despatch a mission to view these camps on the spot and to make the necessary offers of assistance to the French authorities?

Mr. Butler

As I stated on 23rd February in reply to the hon. and learned Member for Kingswinford (Mr. A. Henderson) His Majesty's Government are in consultation with the French Government on this subject. It will be appreciated that any steps which it may be decided to take must receive the full approval of the French Government, and in these circumstances a statement from me to-day would be premature. I can, however, assure the House that the matter is receiving our most sympathetic consideration, and I hope very shortly to be able to make a full statement.

Mr. Noel-Baker

In view of the tragic reports from reliable eye-witnesses of the position there, will the Government treat this as a matter of great urgency and great importance?

Mr. Butler

Yes, certainly.

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