HC Deb 27 April 1939 vol 346 cc1293-305
25. Miss Ward

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will give an assurance that in future Wallsend-on-Tyne shall rank as equal priority for Civil Defence purposes as Newcastle-on-Tyne and Gates-head-on-Tyne?

Sir J. Anderson

I can assure the hon. Lady that the great importance of Tyne-side in regard to Civil Defence is fully appreciated. She has been good enough to let me know that some feeling has been aroused locally because a circular letter had been sent by my Department to the county boroughs of Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Gateshead with regard to the distribution of the house-holder's steel shelter without any such communication having been sent at the same time to Wallsend. The hon. Lady will appreciate that, though the productive capacity of the steel industry is being used to the maximum, it has been necessary to arrange for the progressive distribution of the supplies, as they come forward, and it would not have been possible to supply the whole of Tyneside simultaneously without detriment to other areas to the importance of which the Government must have due regard. In a further circular letter issued on Tuesday last the Borough of Wallsend was included among a number of local authorities who were requested to take action in connection with the distribution of the shelter. The hon. Lady will appreciate that Wallsend is now being treated on the same footing as Newcastle and Gateshead.

Miss Ward

While thanking my right hon. Friend may I have an assurance that in future the whole of the Tyneside, in view of its vulnerability and the fact that they are not allowed to have a single factory for the manufacture of aircraft there, will be included in the Newcastle-on-Tyne limits?

Sir J. Anderson

I can assure the hon. Lady that I will do my best to be fair to all sides.

Miss Ward

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I must, with regret, raise this matter on the Adjournment.

26. Mr. Hayday

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware that the chairman of the Air-Raid Precautions Committee for the City of Nottingham is a Territorial officer liable immediately to be called up for service in the Army in a national emergency; and, as at such a time air-raid precautions direction is of vital importance to the civilian population, will he take the matter up with the responsible authority to secure the appointment of a chairman who can give continuous service in a national emergency?

Sir J. Anderson

I cannot offer any comment on a particular case, but I would remind the hon. Member of the request recently addressed to local authorities that, to provide effectively for local Civil Defence duties in time of war, they should appoint at once a Controller and a small Emergency Committee. It is certainly important that the persons so appointed should be people free from other conflicting commitments.

27. Mr. Graham White

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware of the delay caused in the provision of air-raid shelters in commercial buildings by the fact that owners are unable to proceed with their plans owing to the absence of the Code; and whether he can state when the Code will be issued in its final form?

Sir J. Anderson

The Code was issued in a provisional form on Monday last. The hon. Member will appreciate that it cannot be issued in final statutory form until the Bill has passed into law but I am satisfied that the published draft may safely be taken now as a practical guide.

29. Mr. David Adams

asked the Lord Privy Seal what local authorities in England have submitted air-raid fire pre cautions schemes under the Air-Raid Precautions Act, 1937; and which of these have been sanctioned?

Sir J. Anderson

Eight hundred and forty-six boroughs and urban district councils have submitted air-raid fire precautions schemes, 812 have been examined, and the great majority of them have now been settled in principle.

30. Mr. Kirby

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether his expert engineering advisers have yet expressed an opinion upon the Liverpool Corporation's scheme to provide a certain amount of bomb proof shelter by covering in narrow streets in densely populated areas of the city?

Sir J. Anderson

Yes, Sir, and a communication has been addressed to the city authorities on the subject.

31. Mr. Kirby

asked the Lord Privy Seal what arrangements, apart from the general scheme of supply to individuals in their own homes, have been made to ensure an adequate supply of gas-masks in the hospitals and Poor Law institutions of Liverpool for the use of patients and inmates during a period of emergency?

Sir J. Anderson

The numbers of persons in these institutions were included in the figures, supplied by the local authority, on which the issues of respirators have been based. The local authority, therefore, have sufficient respirators for the purposes mentioned in the question.

Mr. Lyons

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether that is the practice that has been pursued in every large city?

Sir J. Anderson

That is certainly the general practice.

32. Mr. Sorensen

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he has considered the resolution passed at a town's meeting in Leyton Town Hall on 20th April, demanding a policy of deep bomb-proof shelters; how many similar resolutions he has received up to date; and whether he has any further statement to make on the matter?

Sir J. Anderson

I have received this resolution. I cannot say how many similar resolutions may have been received by the Department from time to time urging the provision of deep air-raid shelters for the civil population. As regards the third part of the question I have nothing to add to the statement of policy which I made on 20th April in reply to questions by the hon. Members for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) and the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker).

Mr. Sorensen

Would it not be valuable to secure a list of the various districts passing resolutions of this kind? Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that this resolution was the spontaneous expression of an audience which numbered 500 people and will he not reconsider the matter in view of Leyton's proximity to the danger area?

Sir J. Anderson

I have looked at the resolution carefully. I suggest that those who are disposed to pass such resolutions should first consider the reasoned statement contained in the report of the Hailey conference.

Mr. G. Griffiths

Is not the Lord Privy Seal aware that public meetings all over the country have passed resolutions similar to this, and will he not listen to public opinion?

Sir J. Anderson

It is not a question of listening to public opinion, but a question of doing what is best for the community as a whole.

33. Mr. Sorensen

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is considering any further facilities to be offered to householders for the strengthening of cellars and basements by steel supports, or to assist those who cannot, or prefer not to utilise steel shelters effectively to improve other partial means of protection?

Sir J. Anderson

Yes, Sir. A circular letter was issued on Tuesday last to the local authorities in the areas most exposed to risk, setting out the action to be taken for the further development of the Government's shelter programme. I am sending the hon. Member a copy.

Mr. Sorensen

Does that include the provision of steel supports?

Sir J. Anderson

Yes, Sir.

Mr. Duncan

What is the object of the circular published in the "Times" this morning asking for a survey? Should not a survey have been carried out a long time ago?

Sir J. Anderson

Partial surveys have been carried out. The object of the circular was to ensure the completion of surveys throughout the country.

35. Mr. Day

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether his attention has been called to the fact that many landlords of buildings in vulnerable areas who have let off same in suites or floors have not taken the necessary precautions in the event of air raids or a national emergency to safeguard those persons resident or employed in such buildings; and will he take immediate steps to ensure all such persons being afforded adequate protection?

Sir J. Anderson

If the residents in these buildings are within the classes entitled to free provision of shelter, they will be covered by the arrangements described in the circular which was issued on Tuesday last to local authorities in the more vulnerable areas.

Mr. Day

Will the Minister see that landlords have this circular brought to their notice?

Sir J. Anderson

The circular is available to all through the usual channels.

36. Mr. John Morgan

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he has supplied the county borough of Doncaster with a supply of gas masks adequate for the normal population; what are the terms of the representations he has recently received on the subject; and what answer he has given?

Sir J. Anderson

73,650 civilian respirators have been supplied to Don-caster, including a supplementary issue of 6,750 this month which was asked for as an instalment towards the final requirements. I believe the population is less than 72,000, so the issue already made should be sufficient; but if when the fitting census has been completed more are required they will be issued. I have received no representations recently from the local authority other than the request for the additional quantity which has been supplied.

Mr. Morgan

Is the figure of 72,000 which the right hon. Gentleman quoted based on the latest Census returns, or is it an ascertained figure?

Sir J. Anderson

It is not an ascertained figure but the best figure I could arrive at. As I have indicated, the number of respirators actually issued is over 80,000.

37. Mr. David Adams

asked the Lord Privy Seal why, in view of his decision that there is a case for providing heavily protected shelter for certain key-points and for the employé's in certain vital services, he does not consider that in the national interest the industrial population generally should be provided with similar effective shelter?

Sir J. Anderson

This was one of the recommendations of the Hailey Conference on Air-Raid Shelters, and reasoned arguments in favour of it are given in the report of that conference, which was presented to Parliament on 19th April. As I have already informed the House, the recommendations made in that report have been accepted in principle by the Government, and on this point I have nothing to add to the full statement which I made on 20th April in answer to questions by the hon. Members for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) and the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker).

Mr. Adams

May I have an answer to the latter part of my question?

Sir J. Anderson

I intended to imply that that question was answered in the detailed report of the Hailey Conference which I cannot attempt to summarise in reply to a Parliamentary question.

Mr. Adams

Do I understand that considerable sections of the industrial population are to receive no protection?

Sir J. Anderson

No, Sir.

Mr. Adams

Is not that the meaning of it?

38. Sir John Mellor

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether it is his intention to fix any period of time during which a local authority may be permitted to defer transference of control of air-raid wardens to the police; and whether those local authorities which still retain control of air-raid wardens will be required to transfer control to the police on the out break of war?

Sir J. Anderson

I have not thought it necessary to fix any definite time limit, and there would be obvious disadvantages in insisting on a change of control at the outset of an emergency. Arrangements to ensure effective liaison between the wardens' service and the police in time of war are necessary in any event, and this matter is being attended to.

Sir J. Mellor

Does not my right hon. Friend think that it would be much better that the whole situation should be dealt with forthwith so that everybody will know where they will be under war conditions, and that the transfer should be made forthwith rather than wait to be completed in time of war?

Sir J. Anderson

It has been thought right to allow a certain latitude in this matter. There is no question of suddenly changing on the onset of an emergency.

Mr. R. C. Morrison

How many local authorities have refused to transfer their wardens?

Sir J. Anderson

The number is relatively very small.

39. Mr. G. Strauss

asked the Lord Privy Seal why hurricane lamps supplied by the Government to Lincolnshire and the East Riding of Yorkshire for air-raid precautions purposes were of German manufacture?

Sir J. Anderson

In connection with a lighting experiment which was to have been carried out in the Humber district last week-end it was necessary to provide a large number of hurricane lamps. As the local authorities concerned were not in a position to supply all the lamps required, my Department arranged to obtain 2,000 lamps on loan from the Office of Works. I understand that these were supplied from existing stocks held by the Office of Works, which were bought during the emergency last September. At that time it was considered essential to obtain all available supplies, and, as British-made lamps could not then be obtained in time in sufficient number, there was no alternative but to purchase such lamps as were available from stocks held by traders in this country.

Mr. Strauss

May we take it that none of the hurricane lamps bought since are of German manufacture?

Sir J. Anderson

I think so.

Mr. Bellenger

Does the answer indicate that in the event of another emergency we shall have to rely on Germany to provide essential stocks of things like hurricane lamps?

Sir J. Anderson

No, we are not relying on Germany for supplying anything essential.

Mr. Shinwell

Is there no protection from a Government Department which purchases equipment from a foreign country in a time of crisis?

Sir J. Anderson

We did not purchase equipment from a foreign country. It was equipment that happened to be in this country.

40. Mr. Noel-Baker

asked the Lord Privy Seal how many steel shelters had been delivered to householders in the Greater London area up to 22nd April, 1939?

Sir J. Anderson

I am not in a position to say how many of these shelters have actually been delivered to householders, but the number despatched from contractors' works up to 22nd April to areas within the Metropolitan Police District is 138,000.

41. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Lord Privy Seal the measures he is taking to stimulate local authorities who are showing a reluctance to complete the organisation of air-raid precautions in the area under their control?

Sir J. Anderson

I issued a circular to all scheme-making local authorities on 18th April asking them, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, to give priority to Civil Defence measures during the following three months. The regional officers of the Air-Raid Precautions Department are in constant touch with the local authorities in their areas; and can supplement, as occasion arises, any representations which the Department may make.

Mr. Shinwell

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the local authorities are doing everything that is required in the preparations for an emergency?

Sir J. Anderson

There are local variations naturally, but I am satisfied that there has of late been a very marked improvement.

Mr. Benjamin Smith

Is the right hon. Gentleman equally satisfied that the representatives he sends to local authorities are always helpful, and not often obstructive?

Mr. Lunn

Are they getting the financial assistance they ought to get?

Sir J. Anderson

The terms of the financial assistance are not within the discretion of His Majesty's Government. They were settled by Parliament in the Act of 1937.

42. Mr. Sandys

asked the Lord Privy Seal what arrangements his Department is making to provide additional earth or rubble for the purpose of covering over steel householders' shelters in districts where these cannot be adequately sunk; and whether the cost entailed will rank for grant?

Sir J. Anderson

Consideration has been given to the difficulty that arises when, owing to the high level of subsoil water, it is not possible to sink the householder's shelter to an adequate depth into the ground. If the local authority is able to obtain at reasonable cost sufficient earth and rubble to provide adequate cover for the shelters, the expenditure so incurred will rank for grant under the Air-Raid Precautions Act. In some cases it may be found preferable to cover the shelter with concrete, and the cost of this will similarly rank for grant. My technical advisers have been working upon designs for alternative types of shelter which may be found more suitable in areas where the local problem cannot readily be resolved by the use of the steel shelter; and these designs will be published very shortly.

Mr. Sandys

Can my right hon. Friend say whether his Department have issued a circular to local authorities giving them this information?

Sir J. Anderson

I do not think a general circular has been issued, but we have been dealing with particular cases on their merits.

Mr. Sandys

Is it not important that local authorities, who cannot always be looking through the OFFICIAL REPORT, should know that they have these powers?

Sir J. Anderson

I will certainly look into that point.

44. Mr. Whiteley

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether his attention has been called to the fact that in the event of an air raid and gas attack the fumes will cause danger to miners working underground; and whether he is taking any steps to deal with this problem?

Sir J. Anderson

A Memorandum outlining the precautions necessary in collieries for the protection of employés was issued last year to all colliery undertakings. I am sending the hon. Member a copy and would refer him particularly to Section 8.

Mr. Whiteley

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since this was issued advice has been sought on this matter, and that it has been declared by experts that the fumes can penetrate shafts and cause great damage?

Sir J. Anderson

That is exactly the point dealt with in Section 8 of the Memorandum to which I have referred.

Mr. J. Griffiths

Can this Memorandum be circulated to all mining Members, or printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT?

Sir J. Anderson

I will certainly have it put in the Library, and if wider circulation is required I will consider providing for it.

Mr. Benjamin Smith

Have all persons working underground, such as men in cold storage premises, been getting the same advice?

Sir J. Anderson

This question related to coal mines, and the circular to which I have referred was dealing with coal mines.

51. Mr. Mander

asked the Lord Privy Seal what instructions have recently been given to town clerks and clerks to councils giving authority to act without the permission or knowledge of their mayors, chairmen, aldermen or councillors?

Sir J. Anderson

No such instructions have been issued by my Department.

Mr. Mander

If I bring to the Lord Privy Seal's attention various conferences held in these circumstances will he be good enough to look into the matter, and before anything of the kind is done, will he take into consultation the various local authorities?

Sir J. Anderson

Certainly. I have already entered into consultations, and the Circular shows clearly that it could not be carried out without a reference to the local authorities.

Mr. Mander

Then are town clerks and clerks to councils at liberty to explain to their mayors and chairmen what has been told to them?

Sir J. Anderson

Most certainly.

54. Mr. E. J. Williams

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether air-raid precautions work in every section is part of the National Service scheme; who is the controlling body in the county of Glamorgan; and what are the functions and consultative powers of all local authorities within the county with regard to air-raid precautions?

Sir J. Anderson

Public air-raid precautions work is part of Civil Defence and personnel enrolled for such work fall within the National Service scheme. The county council is the authority charged with the duty of preparing an air-raid general precautions scheme for the county, after consultation with the councils of county districts within the county, and it is the duty of every local authority within the county to discharge such functions as may be imposed on it by the Act of 1937, or by the county scheme made thereunder.

59. Miss Ward

asked the Minister of Health whether a decision has now been taken to include the various boroughs bordering on the River Tyne in those areas which are scheduled for evacuation?

The Minister of Health (Mr. Elliot)

My officers have within the last few days made a detailed investigation, in conference with representatives of the Tyne-side authorities, into the question of evacuation. The matter is under consideration at the moment and I hope to be able to give a decision in the near future.

Miss Ward

While thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply, may I ask whether he will consult the Lord Privy Seal as to the desirability of regarding Tyneside as one unit?

Mr. Elliot

I think it is desirable to proceed along the lines which will give satisfactory results.

Mr. Ede

Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to announce a decision within 14 days?

Mr. Elliot

I should not like to give a date.

63. Mr. J. Griffiths

asked the Minister of Health what steps he is taking to secure that the water supply and other essential services in the reception areas in Wales under the evacuation scheme will be adequate to the needs of the increased population; and whether he will grant increased financial aid to local authorities in those areas to make those services adequate to the needs?

Mr. Elliot

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for West Leyton (Mr. Sorensen) on 23rd March last.

Mr. Griffiths

Has the right hon. Gentleman received any resolutions from local authorities in Wales pointing out that their financial resources are not adequate to provide for any such increase in the population?

Mr. Elliot

I have received representations from authorities in several areas, and I have said in my answer that we shall take steps to avoid areas where insuperable difficulties are likely to arise on account of water supplies and drainage.

68. Mr. Crowder

asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the difficulties which may arise in regard to building regulations in the transfer of commercial firms in time of war from evacuable areas to emergency houses in outlying districts, he will consider advising local authorities in general that, provided the facilities are reasonable, no unnecessary objections should be made to the adaptation of premises for the purpose required?

Mr. Elliot

Presumably my hon. Friend has in mind the application under the Public Health Act, 1936, of building bylaws to buildings which undergo structural alteration or change of user. As the by-laws relating to domestic buildings are, in general, stricter than those relating to buildings of the warehouse class, I do not anticipate that difficulties of the kind mentioned will, in practice, arise.