HC Deb 30 March 1938 vol 333 cc1985-9
30. Commander Sir Archibald Southby

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what steps were taken to obtain the views of naval officers under the rank of commander upon the naval marriage allowance proposals; whether, in obtaining such views, care was taken to explain the full implications of the scheme; whether any alternative scheme was submitted to naval officers for consideration; and, if so, what were its provisions?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Shakespeare)

As my hon. and gallant Friend will be aware from the reply I made to the hon. and gallant Member for Chatham (Captain Plugge) on 23rd March, the Admiralty asked Commanders-in-Chief to make discreet inquiries as to the views of officers in their commands. Two alternatives were offered. The first was the same as the present scheme of marriage allowance and children's allowances except for a modification in the case of captains. The second was a flat rate of 6s. 6d. marriage allowance with no children's allowance and the same deductions from pay. The average benefit to the naval officer would have been the same under the two schemes. On the whole, the officers of the Fleet preferred the first alternative.

Sir A. Southby

In view of the fact that the scheme does undoubtedly cause injustices to naval officers, will my hon. Friend make further inquiries from junior naval officers with a view to its possible amendment?

Mr. Shakespeare

I cannot accept the premise on which that question is based.

Vice-Admiral Taylor

Can the hon. Gentleman say how extensive were these inquiries among junior officers?

Mr. Shakespeare

My hon. and gallant Friend, I am sure, does not wish to criticise the efficiency of the Commanders-in-Chief.

Vice-Admiral Taylor

I am not doing so. I merely ask what was the extent of the inquiries.

31. Sir A. Southby

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many naval officers of and under the rank of captain are at present drawing lodging allowance; and how many of these officers are employed in London?

Mr. Shakespeare

The approximate number of naval officers of the rank and relative rank of captain and below in receipt of lodging allowance is 1,500. Of these about 325 to 350 are employed in the London area.

35. Vice-Admiral Taylor

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty why married officers under the marriage allowance scheme, who receive such marriage allowance because they are married, are to be prohibited from receiving this allowance when they are placed on half pay?

Mr. Shakespeare

The general basis of the marriage allowance scheme is that officers in appointments in which they are necessarily separated from their families shall be placed in as good a financial position as those in appointments in which they draw lodging allowance and can live with their families. The position of the officer on half pay is not affected by this consideration and consequently his position is unchanged.

Vice-Admiral Taylor

Am I to understand that married officers are not being paid marriage allowances because they are married?

Sir A. Southby

Can my hon. Friend say what the lodging allowance has to do with married officers?

Vice-Admiral Taylor

May I have an answer to my question? It is very important to know?

Mr. Speaker

rose—

Vice-Admiral Taylor

On a point of Order. We are dealing with married officers' allowances, and I am asking a question with specific reference to this allowance. Surely I am entitled to get an answer. If an officer is married, surely he ought to get his marriage allowance.

Mr. De la Bère

Is not the whole matter very unsatisfactory?

36. Vice-Admiral Taylor

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what lodging allowance is paid to lieutenant-commanders and commanders on taking up an appointment at the Admiralty?

Mr. Shakespeare

Lodging allowance at the rate of £80 a year is payable to lieutenant-commanders and commanders employed at the Admiralty.

Vice-Admiral Taylor

Is this not an allowance specifically paid because no quarters are provided for the officer who takes up the appointment, and, therefore, whether an officer is married or unmarried, should he not receive such allowance? Can I have an answer?

Mr. Shakespeare

I could not answer that question properly without fuller debate, but in substance the hon. and gallant Member is right.

Mr. Speaker

rose—

Vice-Admiral Taylor

But if—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I am speaking at the moment, and I do not want to be interrupted. Hon. Members do not seem to realise that there are 92 questions on the Paper, and that we cannot make a Debate out of every one of them.

Vice-Admiral Taylor

On a point of Order. Surely I am entitled to an answer to a supplementary question?

Mr. Speaker

The hon. and gallant Member has already put a supplementary question and got an answer to it.

37. Rear-Admiral Sir Murray Sueter

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether a lieutenant - commander appointed to the Admiralty in receipt of marriage allowance sustains a cut of 2s. a day and, in addition, is deprived of lodging and compensation allowance; and, if so, whether he loses or gains by the grant of marriage allowance, and by what amount?

Mr. Shakespeare

A lieutenant-commander appointed to the Admiralty who receives marriage allowance in lieu of lodging allowance will at the same time sustain a cut of full pay of 2s. a day. He continues to draw provision allowance. Whether he gains or loses by the change will depend on the number of his children, but on the average his position would be practically unaltered apart from a new grant of the removal allowance of £40; this is in accordance with the general principle that no change should be made in the average position of the married officer when on shore. I would remind the hon. and gallant Member that in order that no officer may sustain an immediate decrease in pay, officers will until their next promotion be given on the occasion of each appointment the option of serving under existing conditions.

Sir Patrick Hannon

In view of the unsatisfactory condition of the arrangements made, will the First Lord take into consideration a revision of the whole system?

Mr. Shakespeare

I think there is a good deal of misunderstanding as to the effect of this provision, and I understand that my right hon. Friend proposes to lay a White Paper at the earliest opportunity.

Vice-Admiral Taylor

Is it not a fact that married officers should receive their marriage allowance because they are married and should receive lodging allowance because quarters are not provided for them? These are two perfectly separate and distinct things, and, therefore, they should receive them both when they are married and when they have not quarters provided for them.

40. Mr. Parker

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will state, under the three categories, captains, commissioned officers, and commissioned warrant and warrant officers, the separate yearly rates of marriage and children allowances to be granted from Friday next, the pay reductions and the allowances to be withdrawn, and the net gain or loss of officers in each grade who are now drawing allowances, including the warrant officers now given special rates of pay to avoid pecuniary loss on promotion?

Mr. Shakespeare

The hon. Member's question cannot be satisfactorily answered except by giving him the complete regulations on the subject. These will be ready in a few days, and I am arranging for supplies to be made available to the House.