§ 9.14 p.m.
§ Captain CrookshankI beg to move, in page 17, line 8, to leave out "or by a coal-mining lease."
This and the next Amendment are only drafting. The Committee made some alterations and the result was that it was not clear exactly what was intended. It was, of course, intended that the Commission should give the right to search or bore, and the Amendment reserves the right in the case of those who have it now under the Working Facilities Order.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Further Amendment made: In page 17, line 9, after "do," insert:
or a person having the right so to do by virtue of a retained interest subject to which the coal in question is vested in the Commission."—[Captain Crookshank.]
§ 9.17 p.m.
§ Mr. ShinwellI beg to move, in page 17, line 9, at the end, to insert:
(2) Where any facility, right, or privilege is required to enable the Commission to search or bore for coal in order that searching or boring may be effectively carried out the Commission shall have power to exercise such facility, right, or privilege subject to the payment of compensation to the person upon or through whose land the said operation, or either of them, is carried out.(3) In particular, but without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision, such rights shall include—
- (a) a right to let down the surface;
- (b) a right of air-way, shaft-way, or surface or underground wayleave, or other right for the purpose of access to or conveyance of minerals or the ventilation or drainage of the borings;
2113 - (c) a right to use and occupy the surface for the erection of railways, tramways, roads, buildings, or other works, or of dwellings for persons employed in connection with the borings;
- (d) a right to obtain a supply of water or other substances in connection with the borings;
- (e) a right to dispose of water or other liquid matter obtained from the borings.
(4) Compensation for the exercise of any such facility, right, or privilege shall be assessed in accordance with the provisions of the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919.The purpose of the Amendment is to ensure that the term "search or bore for coal" which is contained in the Clause shall include all the rights referred to in Sub-section (3) of the Amendment. It would make certain that the Commission, in the discharge of this duty, shall have not only those rights but any subsidiary or accompanying rights which are essential to the discharge of their functions. It may be that the hon. and gallant Gentleman will be able to assure us that the term "search or bore for coal" includes those rights. I gather that might well be so, and it would then be unnecessary for us to press the Amendment. I should like to have that assurance from him before we make up our minds.
§ 9.19 p.m.
§ Captain CrookshankI think I can reassure the hon. Gentleman by saying that the rights and the possibility of securing the rights are in the Bill, although they are not there in the form in which the Amendment is drawn, needless to say. Under Clause 28, it is possible for the Commission, by going to the Railway and Canal Commission, to secure those rights. It will also be within the power of the Commission to acquire
the benefit of any right to be exercised in respect of any land for a coal-mining purpose.If I may take him still further, on page 33 of the Bill he will find a definition of a coal-mining purpose. In Clause 38 it states that it includessearching and boring for.… coal.The channel by which they act is the Railway and Canal Commission for the right in specific cases. Probably that explanation answers the specific question. If it does not do so, I will amplify it.
§ Mr. ShinwellDoes that not limit the power of the Commission? The general 2114 powers referred to in Clause 15 include the right to search or bore, and there is no stipulation as to approaching the Railway and Canal Commission. If the Commission, in discharge of its duty, has to approach the Railway and Canal Commission, the carrying out of their task may be considerably impeded. I am not at all sure that this is not the Clause where the express stipulation should be inserted.
§ Captain CrookshankOf course the Commission can get what they want by agreement, but what happens if they cannot get it by agreement is very much the same sort of procedure as exists in other legislation. The Commission would naturally try to get any rights amicably by agreement, but if it could not, it has to have recourse to the Railway and Canal Commission.
§ 9.21 p.m.
§ Sir S. CrippsSurely that is not very satisfactory. Here is a public authority entitled to do certain things and to go and bore for coal. Any other colliery in a similar position would have the entitlement to get the necessary land and other powers necessary to enable it to carry out its purpose. It would not have to go to some Railway and Canal Commission in order to get it. When you give a company power to run a railway you give power to acquire land to run the railway. You give the power when you incorporate it. All we want to do is to give exactly the same power to the Coal Commission that any other public authority has, in order that it may carry out its duty without having to go and get those powers from some other body.
It is an entirely new idea that when you have an obligation to search and bore for coal you do not give the body upon which you impose the obligation the means for carrying out that obligation except by the indirect method of putting them under the control of another body. The right people to know whether or not they ought to go on certain land or bore in certain places is the Commission and not the railways, who have nothing to do with it. That arrangement may have been all right in the old days in order to protect the rights of a private individual from another private individual and in order to decide between two private individuals which of them [...] enforce his conditions upon the [...] 2115 but where you set up a public body you must surely give that public body the power to carry out its work. We are asking for something different from the old power to get permission from the Railway and Canal Commission, We should give these people the full equipment necessary to do what this Clause says they have to do without putting them in an impossible difficulty and in a position which may lead to a great
§ deal of expense and litigation, which is very undesirable. We ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman to consider it. We believe that without such a provision the Commission will be seriously hampered in carrying out what will become an essential part of its functions.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 99; Noes, 188.
2117| Division No. 515.] | AYES. | [9.25 p.m. |
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Gibson, R. (Greenock) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) | Green, W. H. (Deptford) | Muff, G. |
| Adamson, W. M. | Grenfell, D. R. | Naylor, T. E. |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) | Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) | Oliver, G. H. |
| Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) | Groves, T. E. | Paling, W. |
| Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. | Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.) | Parkinson, J. A. |
| Banfield, J. W. | Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) | Pearson, A. |
| Barnes, A. J. | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Quibell, D. J. K. |
| Barr, J. | Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.) | Richards, R. (Wrexham) |
| Bellenger, F. J. | Hayday, A. | Riley, B. |
| Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W. | Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) | Ritson, J. |
| Broad, F. A. | Henderson. T. (Tradeston) | Sexton, T. M. |
| Bromfield, W. | Hills, A. (Pontefract) | Shinwell, E. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire) | Hopkin, D. | Silverman, S. S. |
| Buchanan, G. | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Simpson, F. B. |
| Cape, T. | Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) | Smith, E. (Stoke) |
| Charleton, H. C. | John, W. | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Chater, D. | Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. | Stephen, C. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Jones, A. C. (Shipley) | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) |
| Cocks, F. S. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Cove, W. G. | Kelly, W. T. | Thurtle, E. |
| Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. | Tinker, J. J. |
| Daggar G. | Leach, W. | Tomlinson, G. |
| Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) | Lee, F. | Viant, S. P. |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Leonard, W. | Walkden, A. G. |
| Day, H. | Leslie, J. R. | Watson, W. McL. |
| Dobbie, W. | Logan, D. G. | Wilkinson, Ellen |
| Dunn, E (Rother Valley) | Lunn, W. | Williams, T. (Don Valley) |
| Ede, J. C. | Macdonald, G. (Ince) | Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe) |
| Edwards, Sir C, (Bedwellty) | McEntee, V. La T. | Windsor, W. (Hull. C.) |
| Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. | McGhee, H. G. | Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) |
| Frankel, D. | MacLaren, A. | |
| Gallacher, W. | Maxton, J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Gardner, B. W. | Montague, F. | Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Mathers. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) | Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) | Findlay, Sir E. |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Gomdr, P. G. | Conant, Captain R. J. E. | Fleming, E. L. |
| Albery, Sir Irving | Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk. N.) | Foot, D. M. |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Cooke, J. O. (Hammersmith, S.) | Fyfe, D. P. M. |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. | George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) |
| Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) | Croom-Johnson, R. P. | George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) |
| Balniel, Lord | Cross, R. H. | Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Barrie, Sir C. C. | Crossley, A. C. | Gledhill, G. |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Crowder, J. F. E. | Gluckstein, L. H. |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) | Culverwell, C. T. | Coldie, N. B. |
| Beechman, N. A. | Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) | Gower, Sir R. V. |
| Bernays, R. H. | Dawson, Sir P. | Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) |
| Birchall, Sir J. D. | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester) |
| Boulton, W. W. | Denville, Alfred | Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J. |
| Bower, Comdr. R. T. | Dodd, J. S. | Grimston, R. V. |
| Bracken, B. | Donner, P. W. | Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake) |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury) | Guinness. T. L. E. B. |
| Brass, Sir W. | Dugdale, Captain T. L. | Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W. |
| Briscoe, Capt. R. G. | Duncan. J. A. L. | Hambro, A. V. |
| Bull, B. B. | Eastwood, J. F. | Hannah, I. C. |
| Campbell, Sir E. T. | Eckersley, P. T. | Harbord, A. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Ellis, Sir G. | Harvey, Sir G. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) | Emery, J. F. | Haslam, H. G, (Horncastle) |
| Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) | Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) |
| Christie, J. A | Erskine-Hill, A. G. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. |
| Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead) | Evans, D. O. (Cardigan) | Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- |
| Clarry, Sir Reginald | Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales) | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) |
| Higgs, W. F. | Maxwell, Hon. S. A. | Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) |
| Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon) | Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. | Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar) |
| Holdsworth, H. | Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) | Shepperson, Sir E. W. |
| Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. | Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick) | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. |
| Hopkinson, A. | Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C. | Smith, L. W. (Hallam) |
| Horsbrugh, Florence | Morgan, R. H. | Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe) |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) | Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.) | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Hume, Sir G. H. | Morris-Jones, Sir Henry | Spens, W. P. |
| Hunter, T. | Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'ld) |
| Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n) | O'Connor, Sir Terence J. | Storey, S. |
| Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth) | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh | Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) |
| Keeling, E. H. | Owen, Major G. | Strauss, H. G. (Norwich) |
| Karr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) | Peake, O. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. |
| Lamb, Sir J. Q. | Peat, C. U. | Tasker, Sir R. I. |
| Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak) | Perkins, W. R. D. | Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) |
| Law, R. K. (Hull, S. W.) | Peters, Dr. S. J. | Thomson, Sir J. D. W. |
| Leech, Sir J. W. | Petherick, M. | Titchfield, Marquess of |
| Lees-Jones, J. | Pickthorn, K. W. M. | Touche, G. C. |
| Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Pilkington, R. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commandar R. L. |
| Levy, T. | Radford, E. A. | Turton, R. H. |
| Lewis, O. | Raikes, H. V. A. M. | Walker-Smith, Sir J. |
| Liddall, W. S. | Ramsay, Captain A. H. M. | Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan |
| Lipson, D. L. | Ramsden, Sir E. | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Lyons, A. M. | Rayner, Major R. H. | Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend) |
| Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) | Reid, Sir D. D. (Down) | Waterhouse, Captain C. |
| MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. | Raid, J. S. C. (Hillhead) | Wayland, Sir W. A. |
| M'Connell, Sir J. | Reid, W. Allan (Derby) | Wells, S. R |
| MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Ross Taylor. W. Woodbridge) | White, H. Graham |
| Macdonald, Capt. P. (isle of Wight) | Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R. | Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham) |
| McEwen, Capt. J. H. F. | Russell, Sir Alexander | Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R. |
| Maclay, Hon. J. P. | Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G. |
| Maitland, A. | Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Mander, G. le M. | Salmon, Sir I. | Wragg, H. |
| Manningham-Buller, Sir M. | Samuel, M. R. A. | Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. O. |
| Margesson, Capt. Rt. Non. H. D. R. | Savery, Sir Servington | |
| Markham, S. F. | Seely, Sir H. M. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. Munro and Mr. Furness. |