§ Lords Amendments further considered.
§
Lords Amendment: In page 15, line 20, after Clause 12, insert new Clause D.—(Provisions as to arbitration):
On and after the valuation date, a clause shall be included in all leases of coal or mines granted by the Commission providing for arbitration in the case of any dispute between the Commission and the lessee in respect of any provision of the lease or any matter arising therefrom.
§ 4.5 p.m.
§ The Secretary for Mines (Captain Crookshank)I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
The House has reaffirmed several times that the Coal Commission itself should decide, first, whether leases should be granted; and, second, as to cases of renewal. That was the subject of discussion last night. Now we come to a further and smaller point. This Clause deals with the situation when there is a lease and there is some dispute with regard to some matter in the lease. It is common practice in leases to include some method of resolving difficulties of that kind. It is quite a normal thing in coal leases to make provision for arbitration in these circumstances. We envisage that the Coal Commission should be a model landlord, certainly as good in every way as the best landlords. We think it is reasonable that if there should be a dispute about the carrying out of a provision in a lease, there should be a power of arbitration, as is suggested here. I have no doubt that whether this new Clause is put in or not there would probably be such a provision in the leases, as is generally the case to-day, but it is perhaps desirable that there should he some method of resolving a difficulty of the kind I have indicated.
§ 4.7 P.m.
§ Sir Stafford CrippsWe object to this Amendment on the very simple ground that it is imposing upon the Commission a restriction which is not imposed on the ordinary landlord. It may be that the Commission would wish or would not wish, or that the lessee with whom they are in negotiation would wish or not wish, to have such a provision in the 622 lease. If it is part of the general law of the land that such a provision should be included there is no objection to the Commission being governed by that law, but what we object to is a provision such as this, inserted in another place, which puts the Commission in a less advantageous position as landlords than the ordinary landlord. This is only part of the intention to try to cut down and regulate the powers of the Coal Commission in order that they may be in a less free and advantageous position as regards the leases into which they enter. That purpose is shown by the fact that this new Clause was included in a single Amendment with the new Clause C which the House rejected yesterday. That new Clause C was a more stringent form of control imposed upon the Commission, and this is a lesser form. It may be unimportant in one sense; it may not be a matter of very vital importance as to whether the Commission are compelled to do this or not, but the principle of setting up a Commission and then applying to it particular restrictions which are not applied to other people is in our opinion entirely wrong. If you are going to have a Commission and to trust it, it should operate under the ordinary law of the land as regards the granting of leases. It should not be dragooned or hampered by having to include in leases a particular provision which other people are at liberty to include or exclude as they wish. For that reason we shall oppose this Amendment.
§ 4.10 p.m.
§ Mr. PrittThe courts of this country exist in order to do justice as best they can. Parties often agree to arbitration, because in the particular circumstances of cases it is more convenient. Parties sometimes agree to arbitration because they know that the way they propose to carry on their business will not really stand the light of day, and they could not go into a law court. They prefer, therefore, to agree to arbitration. There are two short objections to this new Clause. The first is that it is undesirable that the Legislature should go out of its way to say to an important public body, "Our view is that we had better keep away from the courts and go to arbitration." The second objection is that when noblemen like the particular Noble Lords who are probably responsible for 623 this Amendment say, "As we and our like will be taking leases from the Commission and we know that our operations will not stand the light of day, let us have no risk; do not let us trust the Commission about arbitration; let us compel them to put in an arbitration Clause."
§ 4.12 p.m.
§ Mr. Harold MitchellI hope the Government will accept the Amendment. I think it is a very reasonable Amendment and I cannot see that the contention of the Opposition is correct. The hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) contended that the Commission should not be put in a different position from an ordinary landlord. I contend that the Commission is not an ordinary landlord. It is a monopoly landlord and is in a completely different position. For that reason it is most important that people who must go to the Coal Commis
§ sion if they wish to have a coal lease, should have a measure of protection. There should be some provision for arbitration. The hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt) objected to an arbitration clause being inserted, and argued that these matters should rather be dealt with by the courts, but as one who is not as familiar with the legal profession as is the hon. and learned Member, and speaking as a member of the commercial community, I say that one of the reasons why people like arbitration clauses is that they find arbitration both cheaper and quicker. As one engaged in the coal industry I personally prefer arbitration. For all these reasons I hope the Government will agree to the Amendment.
§ Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 241; Noes, 117.
625| Division No. 280.] | AYES. | [4.14 p.m |
| Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) | Conant, Captain R. J. E. | Gridley, Sir A. B. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. | Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.) | Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) |
| Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) | Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) | Grigg, Sir E. W. M. |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. | Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L. | Guest, Lieut.-Coloncl H. (Drake) |
| Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead) | Cox, H. B. Trevor | Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor) |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S. | Craven-Ellis, W. | Guinness, T. L. E. B. |
| Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (So'h Univ's) | Critchley, A. | Hambro, A. V. |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. | Hannah, I. C. |
| Assheton, R. | Cross, R. H. | Harris, Sir P. A. |
| Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover) | Crossley, A. C. | Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) |
| Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton) | Culverwell, C. T. | Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) |
| Baillie, Sir A. W. M. | Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) | Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. |
| Baldwin-Webb, Col. J. | De la Bère, R. | Hely-Hutchinson, M. R. |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- |
| Beauchamp, Sir B. C. | Denville, Alfred | Higgs, W. F. |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) | Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. | Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S. |
| Bennett, Sir E. N. | Dixon, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. | Holdsworth, H. |
| Birchall, Sir J. D. | Doland, G. F. | Holmes, J. S. |
| Blair, Sir R. | Donner, P. W. | Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. |
| Bossom, A. C. | Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H. | Horsbrugh, Florence |
| Boulton, W. W. | Drewe, C. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) |
| Boyce, H. Leslie | Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side) | Hulbert, N. J. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Dugdale, Captain T. L. | Hunloke, H. P. |
| Briscoe, Capt. R. G. | Dunglass, Lord | Hunter, T. |
| Broadbridge Sir G. T. | Edmondson, Major Sir J. | Hurd, Sir P. A. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham) | Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) | Ellis, Sir G. | Kerr, H. W. (Oldham) |
| Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.) | Elliston, Capt. G. S. | Kimball, L. |
| Bull, B. B. | Elmley, Viscount | Lamb, Sir J. Q. |
| Bullock, Capt. M. | Emmott, C. E. G. C. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. |
| Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L. | Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak) |
| Campbell, Sir E. T. | Entwistle, Sir C. F. | Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.) |
| Cartland J. R H | Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.) | Leech, Sir J. W. |
| Cary, R. A. | Everard, W. L. | Leighton, Major B. E. P. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Findlay, Sir E. | Lewis, O. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester) | Fox, Sir G. W. G. | Liddall, W. S. |
| Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.) | Furness, S. N. | Lindsay, K. M. |
| Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) | Fyfe, D. P. M. | Lipson, D. L. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) | Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley) | Loftus, P. C. |
| Channon, H. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) |
| Chapman, A. (Ruthergien) | Gluckstein, L. H. | MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. |
| Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.) | Goldie, N. B. | M'Connell, Sir J. |
| Clarry, Sir Reginald | Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross) |
| Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) | Grant-Ferris, R. | Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight) |
| Colfox, Major W. P. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | McKie, J. H. |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester) | Maclay, Hon. J. P. |
| Colville, Rt. Hon. John | Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J. | Maonamara, Major J. R. J. |
| Macquisten, F. A. | Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd) |
| Maitland, A. | Rayner, Major R. H. | Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) |
| Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest | Reid, Sir D. D. (Down) | Strauss, H. G. (Norwich) |
| Mander, G. le M. | Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead) | Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-(N'thw'h) |
| Manningham-Buller, Sir M. | Reid, W. Allan (Derby) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. | Remer, J. R. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M F. |
| Marsden, Commander A. | Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) | Tasker, Sir R. I. |
| Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. | Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.) | Tate, Mavis C. |
| Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham) | Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool) | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) |
| Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) | Ropner, Colonel L. | Thomson, Sir J. D. W. |
| Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) | Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry) | Thorneyeroft, G. E. P. |
| Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswiek) | Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R. | Touche, G. C. |
| Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R. | Russell, Sir Alexander | Train, Sir J. |
| Morgan, R. H. | Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) | Walker-Smith, Sir J. |
| Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) | Salt, E. W. | Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan |
| Munro, P. | Samuel, M. R. A. | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H. | Sandeman, Sir N. S. | Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend) |
| Nicholson, G. (Farnham) | Sanderson, Sir F. B. | Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S. |
| Nicolson, Hon. H. G. | Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P. | Warrender, Sir V. |
| O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh | Scott, Lord William | Waterhouse, Captain C. |
| Owen, Major G. | Seely, Sir H. M. | Watt, Major G. S. Harvie |
| Palmer, G. E. H. | Shakespeare, G. H. | Wedderburn, H. J. S. |
| Patrick, C. M. | Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) | Wells, Sir Sydney |
| Peake, O. | Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar) | White, H. Graham |
| Peat, C. U. | Shepperson, Sir E. W. | Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham) |
| Peters, Dr. S. J. | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. | Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Petherick, M. | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's) | Willoughby de Eresby Lord |
| Pickthorn, K. W. M. | Smiles, Lieut-Colonel Sir W. D. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G. |
| Ponsonby, Col. C. E. | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) | Womersley, Sir W. J. |
| Porritt, R. W. | Smith, Sir Louis (Hallam) | Wood, Hon. C. I. C. |
| Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton | Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen) | Wragg, H. |
| Procter, Major H. A. | Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald | Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C. |
| Radford, E. A. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) | |
| Raikes, H. V. A. M. | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Major Herbert and Mr. Grimston | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.) | Price, M. P. |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Pritt, D. N. |
| Adamson, W. M. | Hardie, Agnes | Quibell, D. J. K. |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) | Hayday, A. | Richards, R. (Wrexham) |
| Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) | Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) | Ridley, G. |
| Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Riley, B. |
| Banfield, J. W. | Henderson, T. (Tradeston) | Ritson, J. |
| Barnes, A. J. | Hicks, E. G. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.) |
| Barr, J. | Hills, A. (Pontefract) | Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens) |
| Batey, J. | Hollins, A. | Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey) |
| Bellenger, F. J. | Jagger, J | Sanders, W. S. |
| Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W. | Jones, A. C. (Shipley) | Sexton, T. M. |
| Benson, G | Kelly, W. T. | Short, A. |
| Broad, F. A. | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. | Silkin, L. |
| Bromfield, W. | Kirby, B. V. | Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) |
| Brown, C. (Mansfield) | Kirkwood, D. | Smith, E. (Stoke) |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire) | Lathan, G. | Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly) |
| Buchanan, G. | Lawson, J. J. | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Burke, W. A. | Leach, W. | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) |
| Cape, T. | Lee, F. | Stokes, R. R. |
| Chater, D. | Leonard, W. | Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Leslie, J. R. | Summerskill, Dr. Edith |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R. | Macdonald, G. (Ince) | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Collindridge, F. | McEntee, V. La T. | Thorne, W. |
| Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | McGhee, H. G. | Thurtle, E. |
| Dalton, H. | McGovern, J. | Tinker, J. J. |
| Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) | MacLaren, A. | Tomlinson, G. |
| Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) | Marshall, F. | Viant, S. P. |
| Dobbie, W. | Mathers, G. | Walkden, A. G. |
| Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | Maxton, J. | Walker, J. |
| Ede, J. C. | Montague, F. | Watson, W. McL. |
| Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) | Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J. C. |
| Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Welsh, J. C. |
| Gardner, B. W. | Naylor, T. E. | Westwood, J. |
| Gibson, R. (Greenock) | Noel-Baker, P. J. | Whiteley, W. (Blaydon) |
| Graham, D. M. (Hamilton) | Paling, W. | Williams, T. (Don Valley) |
| Green, W. H. (Deptford) | Parker, J. | Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. | Parkinson, J. A. | |
| Grenfell, D. R. | Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) | Poole, C. C. | Mr. Charleton and Mr. Groves. |
Question put, and agreed to.
§ 4.22 p.m.
626§ transferred to the end of line 41,on page 19."
That is where this Clause should be.
627§ Sir S. CrippsI understand that this Motion is necessary because their Lordships did not appreciate where the Clause ought to go. We are very glad to assist them.
-
c627
- CLAUSE 13.—(Provisions as to obtaining information for purposes of Part I.) 64 words cc627-53
- CLAUSE 14.—(Powers of the Commission in relation to underground land other than coal.) 11,193 words, 2 divisions c653
- CLAUSE 18.—(Amendments of working facilities enactments.) 147 words cc653-4
- CLAUSE 21.—(Reduction by the Commission of rents.) 242 words cc654-8
- CLAUSE 23.—(Purposes for which the Commission may borrow.) 2,056 words, 1 division c659
- CLAUSE 29.—(Restriction on working of coal vested in statutory undertakers.) 63 words cc659-60
- CLAUSE 35.—(Limitation of costs payable in case of disputes between adverse claimants.) 474 words c660
- CLAUSE 40.—(Interpretation of Part I.) 75 words cc660-4
- CLAUSE 41.—(Application of Part I to Scotland.) 1,332 words cc664-6
- CLAUSE 43.—(Duty of the Commission to reduce number of coal-mining under takings where necessary in interests of efficiency.) 684 words cc666-83
- CLAUSE 44.—(Powers of the Commission as to obtaining information for purposes of Part II.) 7,369 words, 1 division