HC Deb 03 February 1938 vol 331 cc358-66
24. Dr. Haden Guest

asked the Home Secretary whether it is proposed to publish any instructions for the use of householders in the event of air attack; if he can indicate whether these instructions will deal with high-explosive bombs, incendiary bombs, and gas bombs; and when the instructions are to be published?

37. Mr. Mander

asked the Home Secretary whether he is now able to state when it is proposed to issue the handbook for householders with regard to air-raid precautions?

42. Sir John Mellor

asked the Home Secretary whether he intends in the near future to publish a handbook on air-raid precautions for householders?

49. Colonel Nathan

asked the Home Secretary when he anticipates that the householders' handbook as to air-raid precautions will be available to the general public?

The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd)

The Draft Regulations issued under the Air-Raid Precautions Act impose upon local authorities the duty of giving instruction and advice to the public on air-raid precautions. As part of this duty it will no doubt be necessary to give each householder some printed advice in simple terms as to the precautions he can usefully take for his household and his home. My Department will shortly issue to the local authorities a supply of the book that has been prepared which can then be circulated to the air-raid wardens. In the light of the experience thus gained it will be possible to decide in what form printed advice to each householder can most effectively be given and how and when it should be distributed.

Dr. Guest

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the book will be issued during the present month?

Mr. Lloyd

Probably, Sir; at any rate, shortly.

Colonel Nathan

In view of the gravity and importance of this matter will the hon. Gentleman direct that hon. Members shall be furnished with copies of these instructions and any other official literature issued by the Department, so that they may be fully informed of the activities of the Department and will know what advice to give to their constituents?

Mr. Lloyd

I will consider that point, but I hardly think that hon. Members would like to be furnished with copies of all the memoranda issued.

Colonel Nathan

Will the hon. Gentleman give Members of the House an opportunity of testing it by experience?

Mr. Mander

Can my hon. Friend say how it is that this book has not been issued before, in view of the fact that we have been informed that it has been ready for more than six months?

Mr. Lloyd

The situation was altered by the passage of the Air Raid Precautions Act, and the responsibility is now definitely upon the local authorities.

Mr. Thorne

Does the hon. Gentleman propose to issue any memorandum upon his visit to Berlin?

Mr. Lansbury

Does the hon. Gentleman propose to send a copy of these documents to the friends whom he has recently consulted in Berlin and Paris?

Mr. Noel-Baker

Do I understand that nothing is yet in preparation for the householder, and that it will be some months before any attempt is made in that direction?

Mr. Lloyd

I do not think the hon. Member would be right in drawing that deduction.

30. Mr. Gledhill

asked the Home Secretary whether any instructions or suggestions have been issued to local authorities regarding the size and type of building used for anti-gas schools and decontamination centres?

Mr. Lloyd

Guidance as to the requirements at places where local anti-gas training is undertaken has been given in circulars and is embodied in section 5 of the Air Raid Precautions Memorandum No. 5—Anti-Gas Training. As regards first aid posts at which facilities for the decontamination of the public would be provided, revised advice was issued to local authorities in a circular on 10th December, 1937, and the further details then promised will be issued shortly.

Mr. Gledhill

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that certain local authorities are proposing to use derelict buildings for this purpose, and, in view of the importance of the matter, will he not give some lead to them on this question?

Mr. Lloyd

The regional inspectors of the Home Office Air Raid Precautions Department are always available for consultation by the local authorities, and I think the matter ought to be settled in that way.

Mr. Gledhill

But could not the hon. Gentleman give some lead in the direction of showing the desirability of having modern buildings for this purpose?

Mr. Lloyd

I think that a great deal would depend upon circumstances, and I am not sure that at this moment I should be doing the right thing in giving such a general lead.

31. Mr. Cary

asked the Home Secretary whether arrangements can be made for a section of the Home Office Industrial Museum to display, by means of photographs and materials, precautions in factory buildings and offices which the Government recommend as practicable against air raids?

Mr. Lloyd

My right hon. Friend will certainly consider my hon. Friend's suggestion.

32. Sir J. Mellor

asked the Home Secretary whether it is his intention that a borough or urban district administering its own approved air raid precautions scheme shall be required through the county precept to contribute also to the cost of similar services in the rest of the county; or whether he will make his approval of a county scheme conditional upon the cost of the scheme being treated as expenditure for a special county purpose to which only those parts of the county covered by the scheme shall be required to contribute?

Mr. Lloyd

My right hon. Friend has indicated in the circular issued to all local authorities on 28th January that where a direction is given that a borough or urban district shall prepare and submit its own scheme, it will be expected that, save in very exceptional circumstances, the borough or urban district will not be called upon to contribute to expenses incurred by the county council in discharging in respect of other parts of the county similar functions to those handed over to the borough or urban district.

36. Mr. Mander

asked the Home Secretary whether he has any statement to make with reference to the visit of the Under-Secretary to Berlin to investigate the air raid precautions there in force?

Sir S. Hoare

His Majesty's Government much appreciate the courtesy of the German and French Governments in providing facilities for these visits, which were a most useful experience. While the different conditions in different countries necessarily result in different methods of dealing with air raid precautions, it will, I think, be agreed that in making our own preparations we should not ignore what can be learnt from methods which are being adopted elsewhere.

Mr. Mander

Might I ask the Home Secretary whether the Under-Secretary is satisfied that the population of Berlin are adequately protected against any British air raid?

Sir S. Hoare

That question should be addressed to the Minister responsible at Berlin.

Mr. Mander

Will there be a return visit?

Sir S. Hoare

No plan at present has been arranged for a return visit.

Mr. Lansbury

In view of the Alice-in-Wonderland sort of arrangement come to between the Under-Secretary of State and the authorities in Berlin for him to go there—I understand that he has been there—does the right hon. Gentleman think the public will have any confidence in this business in view of the fact that the Under-Secretary was sent to Berlin to find out how the German Government will protect their people against our air bombs—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why 'our'?"]—well, then, against the possibility of our bombing—and that he was sent there to inquire from them how we should protect ourselves against the possibility of their bombing us? If that is not the height and depth of tomfoolery I do not know what is.

Sir S. Hoare

I am afraid that I do not understand the right hon. Gentleman. I should have thought it was better to gather experience and knowledge from whatever quarter possible.

Mr. Lansbury

I should think it would be better to negotiate to stop the whole business.

40. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Home Secretary whether he intends that the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State should visit Valencia to inspect the air-raid shelters provided for the civilian population in that town?

56. Mr. Noel-Baker

asked the Home Secretary whether it is his intention that the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State should visit Barcelona and Valencia in order to study the operation of air-raid precautions in practice?

Sir S. Hoare

I am afraid it is not practicable to arrange the visits suggested, but the hon. Members may be assured that we are keeping in close touch with events, and a number of reports on the conditions produced by air raids have been received.

Mr. Shinwell

If it is desirable to visit Berlin, where they have no practical experience of air raids, is it not even more desirable to proceed to Valencia where they have had experience of intensive air bombing?

Sir S. Hoare

All these visits must be a question of time and opportunity.

Mr. Noel-Baker

Is it not likely that the Under-Secretary would have learned a great deal more in Valencia than in Berlin?

41. Mr. De la Bère

asked the Home Secretary whether he is considering the introduction of legislation in connection with the air-raids precautions schemes relating to protective measures to be undertaken by public utility undertakings?

Mr. Lloyd

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which my right hon. Friend gave to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison) on 23rd December last. The form of any legislation which might be required is under consideration.

44. Colonel Nathan

asked the Home Secretary when he expects to be in possession of the schemes to be prepared by local authorities in accordance with the air-raid precautions regulations recently issued; and what steps he is taking to expedite the preparation of such schemes and their consideration by his Department?

Mr. Lloyd

The hon. and gallant Member will appreciate that local authorities only received the regulations a week ago. No general schemes have yet been formally submitted by authorities, but I have no reason to think that they will delay in submitting them, especially as they can be submitted in part. 160 Fire Precautions Schemes had already been submitted, of which a considerable number have now been settled with the local authorities and will be formally approved shortly.

Colonel Nathan

Will the hon. Gentleman say what steps he is taking to impress upon the local authorities the urgency of dealing with this matter; and what steps he is taking in his own Department to expedite dealing with these proposals when they reach the Department?

Mr. Lloyd

I think the local authorities are thoroughly aware of the urgency of the problem. As regards the Department, the hon. and gallant Gentleman will remember that it was recently enlarged and reorganised.

Mr. Logan

Is it possible to do anything with regard to defective roofs which landlords are not repairing?

Mr. Lloyd

That does not arise on this question.

Mr. Davidson

Are these instructions being sent to the Scottish local authorities?

Mr. Macquisten

Is the Under-Secretary aware that one of the largest builders in London desires to make a bomb-proof shelter and cannot get his plans approved; and that the owner of the building went to Berlin long before the Under-Secretary?

48. Colonel Nathan

asked the Home Secretary whether he proposes to arrange a practice black-out and air raid in the Metropolitan area in the near future?

Mr. Lloyd

My right hon. Friend hopes shortly to be in a position to confer with the local authorities concerned with a view to concerting arrangements for an exercise in the Metropolitan area, but it has not yet been decided what form the exercise should take.

Colonel Nathan

Does the Home Secretary propose to put such a practice into effect before receiving schemes from the various local authorities and before he learns what action they are taking in this matter? If that is not so, how is the hon. Gentleman able to organise a practice black-out and air raid in the event of the local population not having received sufficient instruction from the local authority?

Mr. Lloyd

I do not think the hon. and gallant Gentleman has given sufficient weight to the fact that these schemes may come in in part, and may be approved in part, and not necessarily as a whole, with the object of facilitating the work. It is a matter for consultation with the local authorities concerned.

Colonel Nathan

Is it the intention that the population of London should in part be subjected to these black-outs and practice air raids?

Mr. Lloyd

No, Sir, but what might occur is that part of a scheme for a practice black-out might have been approved.

50. Mr. Simmonds

asked the Home Secretary what action he has taken to allocate between the London County Council, the Common Council of the City of London, and the councils of Metropolitan boroughs the duty of preparing and submitting air-raid general precautions schemes?

Mr. Lloyd

My right hon. Friend has indicated, in the circular letter issued to local authorities on 28th January, that, pending the issue of the formal Order under Section 2 of the Air Raid Precautions Act, the London authorities should proceed on the basis of the allocation already provisionally agreed between them, and will invite the authorities concerned to a discussion forthwith to settle the terms of the formal Order.

Mr. Simmonds

Have these councils advised my hon. Friend that this is a practical way of proceeding?

Mr. Lloyd

I understand that this procedure was based definitely on agreement with the local authorities themselves.

51. Mr. Simmonds

asked the Home Secretary when he proposes to inform the local authorities of the financial regulations which he intends to apply to air-raid precautions schemes?

Mr. Lloyd

My right hon. Friend hopes shortly to be able to consult the Association of Local Authorities on the form of the financial regulations. He would make it clear that the rates of grant are prescribed by the Act itself, and that schemes can be submitted for approval by any authority without waiting for the financial regulations which will not affect the question of approval of any scheme.

Mr. Simmonds

Is my hon. Friend aware that important councils take the view that it is impossible for them to put forward a complete scheme for submission to the Home Secretary until they are advised by the Home Office as to what exactly the financial regulations will be?

Mr. Lloyd

We are making it clear that the financial regulations are more or less technical, dealing with such matters as the form on which the application for grant is to be made. It will be possible for local authorities to prepare schemes and submit them, and, while we cannot give them formal approval, we can give a binding undertaking that they will receive formal approval in due course.

Mr. Simmonds

Will my hon. Friend circulate that most important information to the local authorities?

Mr. Lloyd

I do not think the misapprehension is very widespread. I think the effect of this question and the answer will be sufficient.