HC Deb 27 April 1938 vol 335 cc117-22
30. Colonel Nathan

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the division of responsibility for air-raid precautions in regard to the main and special hospitals of London between his Department and the Ministry of Health?

The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd)

I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I gave to a question which he asked yesterday. The general responsibility for air-raid precautions rests on my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, but in the matter of hospitals there is and will be consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.

Mr. R. C. Morrison

Will the hon. Gentleman do what he can to facilitate some decision, either by his Department or by the Ministry of Health, in view of the fact that local authorities in many cases are unable to proceed with the best part of their schemes until they know the position in regard to the base hospitals?

Mr. Lloyd

I appreciate the point, and my right hon. Friend is in active consultation with the Minister of Health.

Colonel Nathan

If I put down another question as to the division of responsibility in a week or 10 days' time, will the hon. Gentleman then be able to give me a more definite reply?

Mr. Lloyd

Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman will put a question down.

Mr. Thorne

Is it the real intention of the Government to make any grant to the hospitals in cases of casualties from air raids?

Mr. Lloyd

In the case of hospitals designated as casualty clearing hospitals, the local authorities would be able to make a grant under the Act.

31. Colonel Nathan

asked the Home Secretary which local authorities have now submitted complete air-raid precaution schemes; and whether the same or any of them have yet been approved by him?

Mr. Lloyd

No complete general schemes in accordance with the Air-Raid Precautions Act and the regulations made thereunder have been formally submitted to my right hon. Friend, and indeed, as he indicated in the circular letter of 28th March, there are a few matters on which definite proposals cannot yet be made. In the meantime, the Home Office are regularly considering and authorising arrangements on particular matters which are submitted to them by local authorities. My right hon. Friend has considered whether it would be possible to give any details of what has been done, but as previously indicated in view of the. varying ground the proposals cover, it would not be possible without disproportionate expenditure of time and labour to give particulars.

Mr. Bossom

Will my hon. Friend give consideration to the question of enlarging the scale of the Ordnance surveys, in view of the fact that the people connected with these air-raid precautions are not able to judge and do their work properly on account of the present small scale models on which they have to work?

Mr. Lloyd

That is a new point. I had thought the present scales were large enough, but I will look into the matter.

Mr. Attlee

Can the hon. Gentleman say why the proceedings with regard to air-raid precautions are so extraordinarily dilatory and why everything seems to be put off week by week and nothing is done?

Mr. Lloyd

I cannot accept the right hon. Gentleman's statement. A very great deal of work is being done, but it must be remembered that this is an entirely new undertaking.

Mr. Attlee

Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that it was four years ago that we first began about air-raid precautions, that we are only now getting the beginning of schemes, and that they are not at all complete?

Mr. Lloyd

The Air-Raid Precautions Act was passed only just before Christmas, and it was only on the Third Reading stage that the party opposite failed to oppose it.

Mr. Gallacher

Will the hon. Gentleman make it clear that this reference to complete air-raid precaution schemes means complete in the sense of being finished schemes, but that they will be totally incomplete so far as the protection of the population is concerned?

Mr. Lloyd

No, Sir.

33. Mr. Rostron Duckworth

asked the Home Secretary what consideration has been given to the provision of adequate protection for the oil-from-coal plant in this country, with the object of rendering it less vulnerable to air attack?

32. Captain Arthur Evans

asked the Home Secretary whether arrangements have been made to provide special anti-air-raid equipment for the oil-from-coal distribution plant in this country?

Mr. Lloyd

Steps are being taken to provide protection against air attack for all points of vital importance to this country, including the plant referred to in the questions.

34. Mr. Lipson

asked the Home Secretary whether he will consider establishing more schools for instruction in anti-air-raid precautions measures so that the number of qualified instructors may be considerably increased throughout the country within a reasonable time?

Mr. Lloyd

My right hon. Friend has consulted local authorities on this important question. To establish additional schools on the lines of the schools at Falfield and Easingwold for anti-gas training is unnecessary at present, but my right hon. Friend is issuing at once to authorities a scheme for an immediate increase in the number of persons who may be regarded as qualified to give preliminary instruction in anti-gas measures. This will enable authorities to expand at once their arrangements for training volunteers.

Mr. Lipson

Will the instructions to the local authorities include permission to those who have received instruction from people who have been trained at one of these schools themselves to give instruction, because at present only one or two who come from these schools can give it, and the impossibility of instruction being given by the others is holding up schemes?

Mr. Lloyd

Yes, Sir, after consultation with the local authorities the other day instructions are being issued somewhat on those lines.

Mr. R. C. Morrison

Can the hon. Gentleman do anything to include other instruction apart from gas training? Does he not think that over-emphasis is being put on the gas part of the training, and that not sufficient instruction is being given to volunteers for other service?

Mr. Lloyd

My right hon. Friend appreciates the importance of the other aspects of training, and, in particular, of course, with regard to auxiliary fire training to deal with incendiary bombs, but there is not the same difficulty with regard to that instruction as there are members of the regular fire brigades available to give it.

Mr. Bellenger

Is there still congestion in the two Government schools as regards the number of volunteers applying for instruction?

Mr. Lloyd

There is still a heavy demand for admission, but I think that the steps which I have just announced will greatly ease the position.

Mr. Gallacher

Does not the main danger come from the high explosive bomb, and what training is being given to save the population from this danger?

Mr. Lloyd

My right hon. Friend certainly appreciates that danger, and he is urging local authorities to complete their surveys of shelter accommodation as quickly as possible.

26. Colonel Nathan

asked the Minister of Transport what steps are being taken by his Department to ensure the immediate repair of railway lines, bridges and stations in the event of their being damaged by air raids?

Mr. Burgin

A special technical committee, consisting of officers of the railway companies, the Home Office and my Department, has been set up to examine these and other precautionary measures.

Colonel Nathan

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication when some decisions are likely to be reached upon which action can and will be taken?

Mr. Burgin

The problem is being surveyed and acted upon. I am not sure that it is a matter on which it is necessary to announce decisions. I think that what the House would like to know is that the subject matter of the question is being taken in hand. To that I can give an answer.

Colonel Nathan

May I ask further, whether the right hon. Gentleman appreciates the importance not merely of giving consideration to these matters but of taking them in hand so that steps can be made effective speedily in an eventuality?

Mr. Burgin

Yes, Sir, I appreciate the importance of all these points. What we are discussing here are railway lines, railway bridges and railway stations, and obviously the repair or replacement of lines or bridges, however the accident or destruction may arise, is a matter always before the main line railway companies. The question is to bring that knowledge up to a practical point for application quickly in the event of an emergency. That is the responsibility of my Department, and it is being discharged.

Mr. Noel-Baker

Are we to understand from the Minister that the railway companies have, in fact, taken no steps as yet to organise special squads or to provide special equipment for this work?

Mr. Burgin

The hon. Member must understand nothing of the kind. There is not a word in my answer to suggest anything of the kind.

Mr. Noel-Baker

Are we to understand that it has been done?