HC Deb 26 July 1937 vol 326 cc2813-5

"That a sum, not exceeding £10,177,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, for Expenditure in respect of the Air Services, namely:

£
2. Quartering, Stores (except Technical), Supplies and Transportation 4,476,000
5. Medical Services 439,000
6. Technical Training and Educational Services 741,000
7. Auxiliary and Reserve Forces 1,360,000
9. Meteorological and Miscellaneous Effective Services 1,429,000
10. Air Ministry 1,250,000
11. Half-pay, Pensions, and other Non-Effective Services 482,000
£10,177,000"

Question put. The Committee proceeded to a Division and The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN stated that he thought the "Ayes" had it; and on his decision being challenged, it appeared to him that the Division was unnecessarily claimed, and he accordingly called upon the Members who supported and who challenged his decision successively to rise in their places and he declared the "Ayes" had it eleven Members only who challenged his decision having stood up.

Mr. Stephen

On a point of Order. Are we not entitled to get the numbers of the "Ayes" and the "Noes"?

The Deputy-Chairman

The numbers of those who contested my decision will be recorded in the Journals of the House.

Mr. Stephen

I could see no indication that the number of Members who stood up on either side was being taken, and it was because I myself was not satisfied that I challenged the declaration that the "Ayes" had it.

The Deputy-Chairman

The hon. Member may challenge the declaration, but I assure him that the number of those who rose in support of the "Noes" has been taken, and will appear in the Votes and Proceedings.

Mr. Stephen

It does not seem to me that it is sufficient that the number of the "Noes" should be recorded. We should also know the number of the "Ayes" and the number who abstained.

The Deputy-Chairman

The number who abstain is never recorded.

Mr. Buchanan

Is it not an unwritten law that at least the number of those who stand up should be announced to the House? Since when has that been departed from?

The Deputy-Chairman

So far as I am aware, the numbers have never been announced from the Chair.

Mr. Buchanan

Only the other night our numbers were counted as being three, and mentioned specifically as three, and I put it to you, with respect, that the same thing ought to be done to-night, that the numbers of the Noes ought to be counted and ought to be announced from the Chair. May I put this further, that the only opportunity that I can get of challenging whether or not the figures are correct is not to-morrow, but immediately the figures are announced, and I put it to you that if the figures are wrongly announced, my only hope of challenging them will be taken away unless they are immediately announced following the Division.

The Deputy-Chairman

If the hon. Member will be good enough to look at Standing Order 31, he will see that the question as to whether or not I permit a Division is one that is solely in my discretion. On this occasion I did think the decision was plain, and when the Members of the House rose, my decision was obviously supported. It has never been the practice of the Chairman to announce the figures on these occasions, and I see no reason for departing from that.

Mr. Buchanan

How am I to challenge the figures that will be put in the Journals, whether they are right or wrong, unless I am given the opportunity of knowing the figures now? Secondly, why is it that in the House only the other night our numbers were recorded from the Chair?

Hon. Members

No.

The Deputy-Chairman

With regard to the hon. Member's second point, I was not in the House myself at the moment when the incident occurred, but the information that I have received is that they were not recorded. I am not in a position either to verify or dispute that statement from my personal knowledge. With regard to the other point, I imagine the hon. Member will have the opportunity of raising the matter in the House when the figures are published.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

Committee to sit again To-morrow.