§ 12.11 a.m.
§ Mr. BuchananI beg to move, in page 5, line 33, after "dismissal," to insert:
but all such persons shall have a right of appeal to the court of referees under the Unemployment Insurance Acts who may-reduce such period of six weeks at their discretion.Briefly, what we propose is that any member of the Forces who is disqualified 1930 from receiving benefit because of a conviction in any court shall have the right of appeal to the court of referees, who shall have the right to reduce the six weeks' period of disqualification. We think that when a man has been tried by a military court, has been duly punished and sentenced for his crime, and has left the Army and become chargeable to the Unemployment Insurance Fund, his conviction by a military court was not necessarily a more serious matter than a conviction by a civil court. I had experience of a case not long ago, of a soldier who was tried by a military tribunal. I was convinced that the best 1931 thing that could happen to him after it was for him to leave the Army. But if a civil court had tried the case I am convinced that it would have found mitigating circumstances. In civilian life, if a man is convicted of a crime, which might be more serious than a conviction of a man in the Army, he has the right of appeal to the court of referees, who may reduce his disqualification period or wipe it out altogether.We think that, although a military tribunal might discharge a man, he ought, when he becomes a civilian, to appear only before a civil court and to receive only the punishment which a civil court may desire to impose. Those who know about the workings of the courts of referees know that the Minister is amply safeguarded by them. They will never allow a bad case. The criticism we make against them is that sometimes they do not allow good cases. All we ask is that a man should have the right to state his case. In appealing to a court of referees, he appeals as a civilian, and if he is a member of a trade union he can have the right of union representation, and, if need be, the right of appeal to an umpire. As I think this an important point of principle, I intend, if necessary, to divide the House.
§ 12.14 a.m.
§ Mr. LawsonThose who were present on the Second Reading will remember that the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) dealt with this point at length. Civilians may get less than six weeks' disqualification, but the Bill lays down that the soldier must have six weeks. That is certainly not equality of treatment, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman is going to remedy it.
§ 12.15 a.m.
§ The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Butler)We appreciate very fully the reasons which prompted the hon. Gentleman in moving this Amendment. We have looked into the matter very closely since the Debate on the Second Reading. We realise that the facts are as stated, and they have not been magnified by the speeches which have been made on this Amendment. But we have met with some very serious difficulties in trying to meet the wishes of hon. Members in this 1932 matter. As far as I can gather, the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) wishes to be able to reduce the six weeks' disqualification in the case of a man who has left the Army where the equivalent offence in civil life would produce a less penalty by way of a reduction of the disqualification period. He proposes that there should be some sort of appeal court, as there is in the case of the court of referees for a man in civil life.
The first difficulty is that of having a civil court of referees over and above a military court. These cases are judged by the military courts, and, if we were to accept this proposal, it would land us, first of all, in the difficulty of setting up a rival system of jurisdiction to the military courts. Besides this difficulty, it is very much appreciated by all who have had experience, that there are also the difficulties associated with the summoning of the witnesses who have to appear before the military courts. Take the example of a case tried somewhere in India or overseas. It would be extremely difficult to summon the witnesses and conduct the case again before a civil court.
§ Mr. KellyCan the Parliamentary Secretary state the proportion of cases where witnesses are called before courts of referees?
§ Mr. ButlerThe hon. Member for Gorbals said that it was possible for a man who had been disqualified to have representation before a court of referees, and that is the case to which I would refer the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly). We have come up against difficulties, much as we would like to meet the hon. Member for Gorbals, and, after consultation with the Service Departments, we find that these particular difficulties are insuperable. We therefore tried to meet the hon. Member in another way. We consulted all the Service Departments as to the type of offences to which the particular provisions of this Clause would apply. We find that if a certificate were granted upon conviction from a military court and the man were discharged, the offence would be a serious one and equivalent in seriousness to the similar case in civil life which carries the six weeks' disqualification.
I can assure the Committee, after the closest consideration has been given to this matter, that only serious cases will 1933 fall under the Clause in question. The hon. Member will see that in fact there will be little or no injustice as a result of our examination. The offences under which a soldier will be deprived of six weeks' disqualification will be, according to the assurance I have given to the Committee, on the same level as those offences which deprive the civilian of six weeks' benefit. I think that, on the whole, he may feel that we are not causing any injustice to the Services, particularly when we remember that the provisions of the Bill are very much more favourable to soldiers than anything before. We ought also to remember that the credit of the soldier paid for by the State will not be affected, and that the soldier will not be deprived of the benefit which will accrue to him as a result of the amendments made by this Clause even if he is convicted by a military court. In view of what I have said, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not press his Amendment. I am afraid that we cannot accept it.
§ 12.21 a.m.
§ Mr. BuchananMay I put this point to the hon. Gentleman? A man comes out of the Army. He is disqualified for six weeks. To whom does he become chargeable? Is it to the Unemployment Assistance Board or to the Poor Law authority? If it be the Board, is he then
§ to have his payment, and if so, wherein is the punishment if he is to get the scale equivalent to what he would have been entitled outside?
§ Mr. ButlerThe answer is that he will have qualified to apply for unemployment assistance under the Board thanks to the credit accumulated during his service.
§ 12.22 a.m.
§ Mr. Herbert MorrisonIt seems to me that the military court cannot have issued an unemployment insurance certificate; that seems irrelevant. The second point as to the referees not having the advantage of witnesses that were before the military court seems to invite the answer that they could surely have access to the papers and the records. The records should be available. If the offence was a serious one and the man would not stand a chance, that is no reason for his case not being heard. I think the issues are very clear. Although the hour is very late we feel that we must divide. I suggest that the Committee should divide forthwith, in order that Members may get away. This Amendment is a matter of elemental justice.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 67; Noes, 141.
1935| Division No. 75.] | AYES. | [12.23 a.m. |
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) | Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) | Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.) | Noel-Baker, P. J. |
| Ammon, C. G. | Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) | Paling, W. |
| Banfield. J. W. | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Ridley, G. |
| Buchanan, G. | Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.) | Ritson, J. |
| Burke, W. A. | Hayday, A. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.) |
| Cassells, T. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens) |
| Cocks, F. S. | Hills, A. (Pontefract) | Sexton, T. M. |
| Daggar, G | Hollins, A. | Silverman, S. S |
| Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) | Hopkin, D. | Simpson, F. B. |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) |
| Dobbie, W. | Jones, A. C. (Shipley) | Smith, E. (Stoke) |
| Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | Kelly, W. T. | Stephen, C. |
| Ede, J. C. | Kirby, B. V. | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) |
| Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellly) | Lawson, J. J. | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Evans, D. O. (Cardigan) | Leach, W. | Tinker, J. J. |
| Foot, D. M. | Logan, D. G. | Westwood, J. |
| Frankel, D. | McEntee, V. La T. | White, H. Graham |
| Garro Jones, G. M. | McGhee, H. G. | Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) |
| George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) | Maclean, N. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A | Marshall, F. | Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) |
| Grenfell, D. R. | Maxton, J. | |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) | Milner, Major J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Mr. Mathers and Mr. Andersor. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) | Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portem'h) | Butcher, H. W. |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. | Beechman, N. A. | Butler, R. A. |
| Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead) | Boulton, W. W. | Campbell, Sir E. T. |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Briscoe, Capt. R. G. | Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) |
| Balfour, Capt. H. H. (lsle of Thanet) | Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) | Channon, H. |
| Balniel, Lord | Bull, B. B. | Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) |
| Clarke, Lt.-Col. B. S. (E. Grinstead) | Hely-Hutchinson, M. R. | Reed, A. C. (Exeter) |
| Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) | Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan. | Reid, W. Allan (Derby) |
| Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J. | Higgs, W. F. | Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) |
| Conant, Captain R. J. E. | Holdsworth, H. | Rowlands, G. |
| Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) | Royds, Admiral P. M. R. |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. | Hunter, T. | Salmon, Sir I. |
| Cross, R. H. | Hutchinson, G. C. | Salt, E. W. |
| Crowder, J. F. E. | Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H. | Samuel, M. R. A. |
| De Chair, S. S. | James, Wing-Commander A. W. H. | Savery, Sir Servington |
| De la Bère, R. | Jones, L. (Swansea W.) | Scott, Lord William |
| Duggan, H. J. | Keeling, E. H. | Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen) |
| Duncan, J. A. L. | Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose) | Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe) |
| Eastwood, J. F. | Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) | Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J. |
| Eckersley, P. T. | Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R. | Spens. W. P. |
| Edmondson, Major Sir J. | Lamb, Sir J. Q. | Stourton, Major Hon. J. J. |
| Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. | Strauss, H. G. (Norwich) |
| Ellis, Sir G. | Liddall, W. S. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Elmley, Viscount | Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. |
| Emery, J. F. | Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) | Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) |
| Errington, E. | McCorquodale, M. S. | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) |
| Erskine-Hill, A. G. | McKie, J. H. | Thomas, J. P. L. |
| Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.) | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. | Thomson, Sir J. D. W. |
| Everard, W. L. | Marsden, Commander A. | Titchfield, Marquess of |
| Fildes, Sir H. | Maxwell, Hon. S. A. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. |
| Firdlay, Sir E. | Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. | Turton, R. H. |
| Fleming, E. L. | Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) | Walker-Smith, Sir J. |
| Fox, Sir G. W. G. | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Furness, S. N. | Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R. | Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend) |
| Fyfe, D. P. M. | Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) | Warrender, Sir V. |
| Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley) | Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J. | Wells, S. R. |
| Gledhill, G. | Munro, P. | Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham) |
| Gluckstein, L. H. | Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H. | Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R. |
| Goldie, N. B. | Nicolson, Hon. H. G. | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Grant-Ferris, R. | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester) | Palmer, G. E. H. | Womersley, Sir W. J. |
| Gridley, Sir A. B. | Peat, C. U. | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Grimston, R. V. | Peters, Dr. S. J. | Wragg, H. |
| Gunston, Capt. D. W. | Petherick, M. | Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C. |
| Hannah, I. C. | Procter, Major H. A. | Young, A. S. L. (Partick) |
| Hannon, Sir P. J. H. | Radford, E. A. | |
| Harbord, A. | Raikes, H. V. A. M. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. | Rayner, Major R. H. | Captain Hope and Captain |
| Dugdale. |
Resolution agreed to.
§ Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Clauses 6 to 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Schedule agreed to.
§ Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.