§
Lords Amendment: In page 18, line 9, leave out
at the rate of five per cent. per annum.
§ Mr. RAMSBOTHAMI beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
The provision as to interest being charged at 5 per cent. was applicable only to certain amounts due for compulsory redemption, and was intended to have a slightly penal effect where the sums were in arrear. My right hon. Friend has given sympathetic consideration to the matter since the Measure passed from this House, and in conjunction with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, has inserted in another place provision to leave out 5 per cent. and to substitute for it a rate which will depend upon the rate for Government securities for the time being.
§ Mr. RAMSBOTHAMIt will depend upon the yield for Government securities.
§ Mr. BELLENGERIf that is the case, why not insert a provision to that effect? The Minister is taking out a fixed rate of 5 per cent. and leaving the matter to be determined by the interest prevailing at the time in respect of Government securities.
§ Mr. RAMSBOTHAMOne cannot foresee, over the space of 60 years, what the rates for Government securities may be. They may rise or fall.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERA special entry will be made in the Journals of the House.
§
Lords Amendment: In page 18, line 11, after "required", insert:
at the rate fixed under subsection (2) of the last foregoing section for the purpose of the determination of the amount of the consideration money.
§ Mr. RAMSBOTHAMI beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
§ 1.10 p.m.
§ Mr. MUFFThis House should not allow these questions of Privilege simply to go by in this casual way. This House should not be reduced simply to a rubber stamp for another place. I suggest that one of the two Ministers should explain a little more fully, to some of us who have not had the advantage of sitting on the Committee, what is the incidence of this matter. I would remind both the Ministers that the country has been very quiet during the passage of the Bill, but it occurs to some of us that these matters might be explained at greater length.
§ Mr. RAMSBOTHAMIt is customary to address that to the Chair.
§ Mr. RAMSBOTHAMI beg the hon. Member's pardon.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI was not quite certain whether the hon. Member was addressing the Chair, but I understand him to be addressing questions through me to the Minister.
§ Mr. MUFFI want the matter to be further amplified, rather than dealt with in the casual strain which the hon. Gentleman has indulged in.
§ Mr. RAMSBOTHAMI will do my best. The decrease in the rate from 5 per cent. to a lower rate is dependent upon what the rate of Government securities may be, and there may be a trivial additional charge made upon the taxpayer, in the last resort. In all cases where Amendments from another place may have that effect upon the taxpayer, those Amendments are called privileged Amendments. This Amendment is in favour of the smaller tithe-payers. I know that this House has it in its power to accept or refuse Amendments from the other place on grounds of privilege, but as this Amendment is in the interest of the smaller and more indigent people, I think the House will not insist upon its rights of privilege.
§ 1.12 p.m.
§ Mr. BELLENGERI do not think the House can be entirely satisfied with the explanation which the Parliamentary Secretary has given. It may seem, to those who have not dealt with this matter on the Committee, quite a small one but we have it in the words of the Parliamentary Secretary that it may entail some slight charge upon the taxpayer.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI had better point out, in the general interests of the House, that Privilege does not necessarily mean an increased charge upon the taxpayer. In this case, it will not.
§ Mr. BELLENGERThen I misunderstood the Parliamentary Secretary. I understood him to say that, if this Amendment were carried, it might involve a small additional charge upon the taxpayer. I am protesting against this manner of getting Amendments through from another place. When we were discussing the Bill we were very much restricted because of the terms of the Financial Resolution, and it is not quite right that the Government should get these privileged Amendments passed in another place and bring them here and say, "They may involve a small extra charge on the taxpayer." We are the House which has an overriding right to say what should be borne by the taxpayer. We have dealt with a number of questions of privilege this morning, and they should not be allowed to pass without some protest being made.
§ 1.14 p.m.
Mr. ACLANDI have not been satisfied with many of the things which the Ministers have done in connection with this Bill, but I ought to say I am satisfied when I am satisfied. I am one of those who moved in Committee that an Amendment of this kind should be included, and I express my congratulations to the Minister. We must recognise that the Amendment is in the interests of the small taxpayer.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERA special entry will be made in the Journals of the House.
§
Lords Amendment: In page 19, line 34, at the end insert:
(7) No application to the court for an order for recovery shall be made, and no proceedings under subsection (5) or (6) of this section shall be taken, in respect of an instalment of an annuity payable on any payment date until the expiration of three months from that date.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERThis Amendment also raises a question of Privilege.
§ Mr. RAMSBOTHAMThe House will remember that when this Amendment was last before us very substantial support was given to it. In the course of the Debate, my right hon. Friend indicated that he was not in a position to accept the Amendment, but he gave an undertaking that he would go very carefully into the matter before the Bill passed another place. The result of that examination is the Amendment on the Paper.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSWe certainly agree with the attitude of the Government on this question. For once in a generation their Lordships are right. The Minister, in the Committee stage and on the Report stage, resisted this Amendment, which was intended to safeguard the very small man. Fortunately, however, wisdom prevails on this occasion. We are very pleased with the Amendment.
§ Mr. PRICEMay I ask what the nature of the Privilege is in this case? Is there likely to be a charge on the taxpayer as a result of the Amendment?
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI think it is highly improbable that there will be any charge on the taxpayer but the Amendment raises a question of Privilege because it prescribes a definite limit of time which must elapse before proceedings can be taken, and, therefore, to some slight extent interferes with the control of public money.
§ Sir W. WAYLANDI also would like to congratulate the Minister on accepting this Amendment, which will certainly benefit those heavy tithe-payers whom I have the honour to represent.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERA special entry will be made.
§ Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 24, line 15, agreed to.