HC Deb 21 May 1935 vol 302 cc1031-4

7.39 p.m.

Sir A. KNOX

I beg to move, in page 140, line 6, at the end, to insert: ?(4) Notwithstanding anything contained in sub-section (1) of the section of this Act of which the marginal note is Conditions of service, pensions, &c., of persons recruited by the Secretary of State, "the conditions of service of the person mentioned in the first two sub sections of this section shall be regulated by rules to be made by the Secretary of State with the concurrence of his advisers in respect of all matters in respect of which the said conditions were, before the commencement of Part III of this Act, regulated by rules made by the Secretary of State in Council: Provided that no rule under this sub section shall have effect so as to give to any person less favourable terms as regards rights and conditions of service than were given to such person by rules made by the Secretary of State in Council. This Amendment, which is couched in the usual legal language and made as obscure as possible, I will try to explain. It will be observed that Clause 244, Sub section (1, a), obliges the Secretary of State to make rules regarding pay, leave, and pensions. As regards other matters, he is not obliged to make rules. He can make rules if he pleases, but otherwise he can delegate his rule-making authority to the Governor-General or the Governors, and in turn they can delegate that authority to subordinates. This provision for the delegation of his rulemaking power by the Secretary of State has given great anxiety to the Services. They wish the Secretary of State would retain this power in his own hands, and they think that they could get a better deal by that means. It is true that those threeheadings—pay, leave, and pensions—can be made to cover most of the things with which they are chiefly concerned, but there are other less definite matters, such as provision for medical treatment and home allowances, which do not come under those headings, and the Services do not like the delegation of the rule-making power on these subjects to be handed over by the Secretary of State to the Governor-General or the Governors.

The object of the Amendment, in brief, is that the Secretary of State should retain in his own hands the power to make rules regarding the Services, at any rate as regards the people who are now serving in India. The Under-Secretary of State, in dealing with the last Amendment, explained his absolute belief in the Secretary of State at the present time and in all future Secretaries of State. I hope the Secretary of State will agree, on those grounds if on no others, to this Amendment.

7.42 p.m.

Sir H. CROFT

I beg to second the Amendment.

I would ask the Secretary of State to tell the House why it is proposed to depute his rule-making power in this respect. We are asking that, at any rate as regards the officers now serving, they should not be deprived of the protection of the Secretary of State, and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to appreciate that point of view, which we have tried to express on several occasions, that officers who are in the Services did join up believing that they were under permanent institutions which were not likely to change to the extent that this Bill indicates. Granted that under the 1919 Act they might have realised that there was to be a progressive form of self-government, step by step, with great gradualness, as indicated by the late Secretary of State, Mr. Edwin Montagu, no one who joined the Services until this extraordinary change of attitude on the part of His Majesty's Government in the year1931 could have supposed that the Service which they joined was to be placed entirely in so many cases, under Indian ministers. Therefore, I urge my right hon. Friend to accept the Amendment.

7.44 p.m.

Sir S. HOARE

I really think it is un necessary for the House to accept this Amendment. The hon. and gallant Member raised this same question on the Committee stage. I then pointed out to him that the Secretary of State can make all rules of every kind, but that the first Sub-section of Clause 244 makes it obligatory upon him to make the rules himself that are concerned with the more important conditions in a civilian Ser vice. Hon. Members will see, if they look at Sub-section (1, a) of Clause 244, that we do coverall those main conditions—pay, leave, and pensions. My hon. and gallant Friend just now said we ought to add medical treatment. He cannot have been in the House during the last hour, when I myself proposed an Amendment, which was accepted by the House, to add medical treatment to those categories. I do not think it necessary to go further than those categories. They cover all the main conditions of service, particularly when medical treatment is added. If the Secretary of State thinks that there are other more detailed rules that should be made, he can make them, but I do not see why, in the case of these less important rules, he should not be empowered to delegate them, if he wishes, to some other authority. That being so, and in view of the fact that I have just added to the list the important item of medical treatment, I suggest that it is unnecessary to make this Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

7.46 p.m.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL

I beg to move, in page 140, line 21, after "to," to insert "or in respect of."

Sub-section (5) deals with the existing rights of pensioners and its object is to preserve those rights. This Amendment is to make it plain that the liability to pay a pension includes the liability to pay a pension in respect of the dependants of a former member of the public service. The Amendment which follows will prevent any inference being drawn from the existing form of the Clause that a right of suit for liability to pay a pension is a new one. We obtain that effect by substituting the expression

any other liability" for the expression "liability."

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 140, line 21, to leave out "a," and insert "any other."—[The Attorney-General.]