HC Deb 21 May 1935 vol 302 cc1002-4

5.59 p.m.

Mr. EMMOTT

I beg to move, in page 132, line 28, to leave out from "twenty-six," to the end of the paragraph.

I move this Amendment in order to give the Government an opportunity of explaining—Hon. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear !"]—I am glad that I carry the House with me—thesignificance of the words which I am moving to leave out, namely: or by some person empowered by the Secretary of State to give directions in that respect.? Their significance is not at the moment altogether plain. It would seem from the Clause as it stands that the Secretary of State can empower some quite new authority to alter rules, to the disadvantage of a person in the employment of the Crown, and there is no indication who or what that authority would be. I shall be obliged if the Minister will elucidate this matter, which remains in some obscurity.

Sir H. CROFT

I beg to second the Amendment.

6.0 p.m.

Mr. BUTLER

I could have understood my hon. Friend desiring an explanation of this subject had not an explanation of it been given on the Committee stage.

Mr. EMMOTT

It was unsatisfactory.

Mr. BUTLER

However, I am very glad to repeat the explanation which was given, because these Service Clauses are naturally rather complicated. The reason why these two lines must, we consider, stand part of the Clause is that Clause 238 comes in the earlier portion of the Service Chapter and relates to people who are not recruited by the Secretary of State, and that is made clear by the opening lines of the Clause. These words are necessary, therefore, in order that in cases where the rule-making power which is referred to in the body of the Clause has to be delegated by the Secretary of State, it shall be delegated by him to such authorities as are empowered by him to give directions. This subject was discussed at some length in Committee, and some hon. Members expressed doubt and apprehension that the Secretary of State should in fact delegate any of this power. They considered that the safeguard would be stronger if everything were left in his hands. I appreciate the motives which actuated them and their fears on the subject, but if they look into the matter and consider that this Clause applies to people other than those recruited by the Secretary of State they will see that it would be physically impossible for the Secretary of State to keep in his hands the whole of the rule-making power and not to delegate it. The ultimate safeguard which hon. Members may desire to see preserved is, in fact, preserved in that the power to delegate this rule-making power will remain in the hands of the Secretary of State, and so the authority who actually does the distribution remains the Secretary of State.

I have given the House an instance of delegating to an authority other than the Secretary of State, who has the rule-making power under this Clause. I gave an instance of this on the Committee stage. It might be necessary for the Secretary of State to delegate this power to the railway authority, for example, and the Federal Railway Authority would, under the Bill, be empowered to make rules, and these words would empower the Secretary of State to give the Railway Authority power to make rules for its own subordinate officers. Therefore, the House will see that there are definite reasons for the insertion of these lines, and, in view of the explanation which I have given, I hope that the House will allow these two lines to stand part of the Clause.

Sir H. CROFT

Whereas it is true that the Under-Secretary of State offered some remarks on this subject on the Committee stage, the position was not quite clear. However, he has made the whole position very much clearer, and I am very grateful to him.

Mr. C. WILLIAMS

Can the Secretary of State withdraw the power of delegation whenever he wishes? If the Under-Secretary is able to give an answer to that point, it will make the position quite clear. I take it that the Secretary of State has the power to withdraw the delegation if he wishes at any time?

Mr. BUTLER

Yes, that is so.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Sir Dennis Herbert)

Does the hon. Member press his Amendment?

Mr. EMMOTT

No, Sir. In view of the very clear and courteous explanation given by the Under-Secretary, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.