§ 9.53 p.m.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERALI beg to move, in page 323, line 17, at the end, to insert:
This Schedule refers to enactments which are repealed because they will be inapplicable having regard to the passage of this Bill. This Amendment proposes to put into the Schedule Section 329 of the Customs Consolidation Act, 1853. This Section was passed in an earlier epoch in our commercial traditions and habits, and enables the Indian Legislature to permit the conveyance of goods or passengers from one part of the possessions of the East India Company to another part in other than British ships. The Section is now no longer applicable. The other statute in this Amendment is the Superannuation Act of 1859, which deals with the superannuation rights of officers who were transferred from the home Civil Service to the India Office in this country. As under this Bill the India Office will become part of the home Civil Service, the provisions of the Act no longer have any relation to India.
16 and 17 Vict., c. 107 The Customs Consolidation Act, 1863 Section three hundred and twenty-nine. 23 and 24 Vict., c. 89 An Act to extend in certain cases the provisions of the Superannuation Act, 1859 The whole Act.
§ Amendment agreed to.
1665§ The SOLICITOR-GENERALI beg to move, in page 323, line 19, at the end, to insert:
This is a proposal to repeal the Madras and Bombay Armies Act, 1893. This Act abolished the offices of commander-in-chief of the forces in Madras and Bombay and military secretary to the Governments of Madras and Bombay. These offices have been abolished and therefore this Act should no longer encumber the Statute.
56 and 57 Vict., c. 62 The Madras and Bombay Armies Act, 1893 The whole Act.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ 9.55 p.m.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERALI beg to move, in page 323, line 24, column 3, at the end, to insert:
except the Preamble and Sub-section (1) of Section forty-seven.This is an Amendment to insert at the end of the provisions of this Schedule repealing the Government of India Act, 1919, the words which appear on the Order Paper. It is consequential. The only thing about which I might say a word is with regard to Sub-section (1) of Section 47. That is the Section which defines the short title of the Bill. As we are excepting the Preamble from the Bill, it is obvious that we should except the Sub-section which gives the short title to the Bill.
§ 9.57 p.m.
§ Mr. MORGAN JONESI am not going to raise the question which I have tried several times before to raise, but I think we must remind the Government that though they preserve the Preamble of the 1919 Act of Parliament we, for our part, must not be understood in any way as accepting the terms of the Preamble of 1919 as indicating what we consider ought to be the ideal we are pursuing at this moment. We have, from the beginning of this discussion, indeed before we began the discussion on the Second Reading, and on the discussion on the White Paper, consistently said that in our judgment it is the duty of this Parliament not to be considering how it can stand by the Preamble of 1919 but how it can implement the repeated declarations given in this House and outside by successive Governments, and 1666 this one as well as the others. I ask the Government once again to take note of the fact that we regard this action of standing by the Preamble of 1919 and leaving it suspended in mid-air, having taken away the rest of the Act, as art Act which has no significance at all beyond the fact that the Government are not prepared to carry out their declaration and their pledges given in the past. I am sorry that the Government have stood by this position. However, we are not anxious to detain the Committee, though we could very usefully have a long discussion on the implication of the Preamble.
§ 9.59 p.m.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERALI cannot allow to pass the statement by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. M. Jones) that any inference can be drawn from this that the Government do not propose to stand by their pledges. It is difficult to discuss this matter without contravening the rules of Order, but as that statement was made I hope the Chair will allow me to contradict it in emphatic terms and to refer to what was said earlier by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and by my learned Friend the Attorney-General on matters raised by the hon. Member for Caerphilly.
§ 10.0 p.m.
§ Mr. ISAAC FOOTI will exercise the same forbearance as the hon. Member for Caerphilly. It may be that the Preamble does not convey to this country and to India all that we would like to express, but none the less this Amendment, following upon the earlier Amendments, is the fulfilment on the part of the Government of a promise made on Second Reading, and because that promise has been carried out we support the Amendment, and we are very glad that it has been found possible to carry the earlier Amendments to the one now suggested. I think there would have been some disappointments if that had not been done.
§ 10.1 p.m.
§ Colonel GRETTONI wish to enter a caveat. I also have an observation to make with regard to this matter of the Preamble. It is intended by the Government to be the preservation of the Declaration of policy. I remember very well at the time that the Preamble was before the House when it was part of 1667 the Government of India Act, and I remember the questions of whether the Preamble adequately expressed the right line of policy to be pursued. It has this at any rate to be said for it. It stands now upon the Statute Book and has authority. It has been there for a number of years, and it carries much more weight and authority than any statements made by Ministers in the course of this Debate or in the Committees. For that reason, it is good authority, and I think it is sufficient authority. I believe that this Preamble has justification for preservation. I am only putting in, as other hon. Members have done, a caveat that some of us do not subscribe to this Statutory Declaration.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ 10.2 p.m.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERALI beg to move, in page 323, line 33, column 3, at the end, to insert:
except Section two and Sub-section (1) of Section four.This is a small Amendment to repair an oversight in the Schedule which repeals the Government of India Navy Act of 1927, the bulk of which is superseded and is no longer necessary as the result of this Bill. There is a section in it which has the effect of making officers of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines who have served in the Indian Navy subject to the Naval Discipline Act. It was not noticed at the time, but it has now been noticed, and this is to put the matter right.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERALI beg to move, in page 323, line 41, at the end, to insert:
This is another very small point. It is consequential on the part of the Schedule which has been passed repealing the Government of India Act, 1919. 1668 What it is now proposed to repeal is the reference to that Act in the administration of Justice Act, 1933. As the Act itself has been repealed, clearly the reference to it in another Act ought to be repealed.
23 and 24 Geo. 5, c. 36 The Administration of Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1933 In the First Schedule the words "5 and 6 Geo. 5, c. 61; The Government of India Act; Section one hundred and twenty-seven."
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
§ 10.5 p.m.
§ Mr. MORGAN JONESI beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
I do so in order to inquire from the Under-Secretary, or the Solicitor-General, as to how far they propose to go to-night. I think the Under-Secretary and the Government will agree that we have made very substantial progress than was, perhaps, expected and on this side we would like to have an assurance from him that if we give, without division, the second reading of this new Schedule, the Government in return would not proceed further to-night but would allow us to take the detailed discussion of the Amendments to the Schedule to-morrow. Of course in saying that it must be understood that there are some details of some importance from our point of view and we should like to-morrow to have ample time to discuss them. If we can dispose of the Second Reading of the Schedule to-night we should secure to ourselves ample time for discussing the various details that will arise to-morrow. I hope, therefore, that the Under-Secretary will be able to assure us that if the Second Reading of this Schedule is passed this evening we shall then be able to begin to-morrow on the detailed discussion of the Amendment.
§ 10.7 p.m.
§ Sir H. CROFTMay I add my request to that which has just been so reasonably put from the front Opposition bench? I think the Under-Secretary will agree that what the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. M. Jones) says is perfectly fair—that we have kept up to time. It has been an anxiety on behalf of my friends that it should not be counted against us that we have discussed some of these very vital matters at so great length that we might have upset the programme. My hon. Friends agree that there are such important Amendments to the Schedule that with a view to saving time we would even 1669 give up a Division on the Schedule in order that we might have a fair discussion of these big points to-morrow.
§ 10.8 p.m.
§ Mr. ISAAC FOOTI should like to associate myself with what has been suggested by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. M. Jones), that if we could reach the Second Reading of this Schedule we should have made ample progress. Could we have some indication whether to-morrow, if necessary by the suspension of the 11 o'clock rule, we could have time to discuss points which may arise? No one can be sure to-morrow that all these different points on the Amendments can be covered within the ordinary time and I think, seeing that we have been able to complete our business—or it appears that we shall be able so to do—in 30 days, it would be a pity if anything arises to-morrow that means that we should be restricted to 11 o'clock rather than be given any such time as may be necessary.
§ 10.9 p.m.
§ Mr. BUTLERThe requests put to the Government by hon. Gentlemen are quite legitimate. I think it would be for the convenience of the Committee if we were to take the Second Reading of this new Schedule this evening, and I appreciate what my hon. Friend has said, and what my hon. and gallant Friend has said, about not dividing on the Schedule. The Committee may be justly proud, on the 29th day, that they have reached actually the end of the original Bill. To-morrow will be the thirtieth day. I understand that it is the intention of the Government to suspend the 11 o'clock rule, and I sincerely hope that it may be possible to finish the new Schedule on the Order Paper, the Amendments there are to this Schedule, and the Burma Schedule, which is largely consequential, except for the different conditions in Burma, by to-morrow night. If we do that the Committee will have achieved something which is a record in the history of Parliament, and I sincerely hope we shall be able to achieve that record. I am obliged to say, on behalf of the Government, that it would facilitate my agreeing to the hon. Members' requests if we could have a reasonable understanding that we would, with the aid, perhaps, of a little later sitting if neces- 1670 sary, conclude the business on the Committee stage of the Bill to-morrow night. If I could have that understanding, I think it is legitimate for me on behalf of the Government to say that we shall just confine ourselves to taking the Second Reading of the Schedule to-night. If there can be no likelihood of an understanding on this point, it would be much better for us to make further progress to-night, but I understand that it would be for the convenience of the Committee to do as the hon. Member suggests, and I hope, therefore, that I may hear that it may be reasonably possible to have general agreement to complete the business on the 30th day.
§ 10.12 p.m.
§ Mr. MORGAN JONESThe Under-Secretary is no poor hand at driving a bargain. I have offered to him a concession, and, in return, he asks a further concession from me. I understand his anxiety, and, as far as I am concerned, and I think I can speak for my hon. Friends, we will do our best. I can only speak for them. We will do our best to complete the business to-morrow, but I must make this observation. We do attach great importance to some of our Amendments, and, if we should find in the course of our proceedings to-morrow that our Amendments are, not designedly but by the exercise of Members' natural rights of advocating their own case, squeezed out, if I may use that phrase, and hon. Members will understand what I mean, we might perhaps be obliged to ask for more time. That would only be in the very last resort. We want to get this thing finished. We should like to have it finished to-morrow night. There is other work pressing for our attention, and it would be in the interests of us all to achieve this record to which the Under-Secretary has referred, namely, to complete this colossal task of the Committee stage in the allotted time. As far as we are concerned, we will do our utmost to co-operate to that end.
§ 10.13 p.m.
§ Sir H. CROFTI am very anxious to try as far as possible to agree with the suggestion of the Under-Secretary. There will not be, I am convinced, any waste of time from my friends. We certainly do not want to procrastinate over any of these new proposals. There are, how- 1671 ever, very vital matters. We will certainly do our utmost to cut our words down, but we cannot on such a matter give any specific undertaking that we will exclude any vital point which comes forward. Personally, I very much hope that the Government will not have to be forced to ask us to sit late to-morrow, because I think that will be out of spirit with the keeping of this agreement, which has been a wonderful lead as to how business can be carried through the House. We will do our best not unduly to take up the time of the Committee, but we must preserve our right to press any vital points on the Government.
§ Mr. BUTLERI think the general feeling among all sections of the Committee is, "We will all do our best," and I feel that His Majesty's Government ought to be content with that. Therefore, I hope the hon. Member will withdraw his Motion to report progress, and give me leave to move this Schedule. I must warn the Committee that I shall be obliged to make a short speech in explaining it, but I do not wish to keep the Committee sitting long to-night.
§ Mr. MORGAN JONESIn view of the obvious good feeling that exists I ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.