12. Captain GUESTasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that there has been a large deficit on the budget of Kenya Colony for six successive years, and that the amount of the annual deficits, after showing some decline until 1934, is expected to increase again in respect of that year; whether these deficits have been realised in spite of very heavy taxation and have been accompanied by a progressive decline in the commerce of the Colony and in the acreage of land under European settlement; whether he is aware that these facts have aroused alarm and resentment among taxpayers, who have no executive control over the expenditure or over the revenue of the Colony; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
§ The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister)Kenya, in common with other primary producing countries, has suffered a serious decline in prosperity during recent years. But I am not without hope that the development of gold mining and other activities may gradually repair the situation of the colony. The budget for the current year anticipates a surplus; the estimated Customs revenue for last December showed the highest figure since 1930, and the returns for the first month of 1935 afford similar evidence of an expansion of trading activity. In the absence of drought and locusts, there are reasonable grounds for supposing that the anticipated budget surplus may, in fact, be exceeded. As regards the latter parts of the question, this House has very definitely expressed the view that the general recommendations of the Joint Select Committee ought to be accepted.
Captain GUESTArising out of that reply, most of which I had not the pleasure of hearing, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a declaration of 1104 rights, supported by the elected members for Kenya, was circularised to all taxpayers demanding the right to control their financial affairs, and that if some step is not taken, this will lead to a grave situation and serious alarm
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI was not aware of this document, but the House will very well recollect that the whole of this situation was most closely examined by the Joint Select Committee, that the report of that committee, which was unanimous, was very fully debated in this House, and was, I think, unanimously accepted in all quarters of the House.
§ Mr. WISEWill not the Secretary of State draw the attention of the taxpayers of Kenya to the fact that the deficits from which they are suffering are largely due to the prolific expenditure, almost entirely on their behalf, in the past?
Captain GUESTMay I draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that his dates are not in keeping with the situation, and that the declaration of rights to which I am referring was issued, with the support of the elected members, as late as December of last year?
Sir P. CUNUFFE-LISTERI imagined that it was a very recent document, otherwise I should have known of it, but I do not think that in the least alters the importance or relevance of what I said, that the whole of this question of financial control was most carefully examined by the Select Committee, who heard members of the Legislative Council of Kenya and unanimously reported that the situation must be as the committee recommended.
§ 14. Major MILNERasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any of the native occupiers of land in the European highlands of Kenya have been removed, or dispossessed, since the receipt of the Morris Carter Report; and, if so, how many have received cash compensation and to what approximate average amount?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERThe Governor informs me that no move has taken place except that recommended in paragraph 811 of the Land Commission's Report. The natives in question are a 1105 few scattered Doroba who have now been accommodated in the Northern Frontier Province. They grow no crops and can claim no title to the land from which they have now moved, and no compensation was therefore payable, but their cattle were inoculated prior to the move by Government free of charge. There was no opposition to the move on the part of the natives.
§ Major MILNERAm I to understand that the natives move owing to the action of the Government or that they move voluntarily?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERThe hon. and gallant Gentleman must understand exactly what the answer says. This was a recommendation of the commission. The Government went into it and found that the natives were perfectly prepared to move. There was no opposition on their part to move, and they moved, I presume, because, as the commission said, it was greatly in their interest.
§ Major MILNERHow many were in fact so moved?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI have not got the figure. The Governor says there were a few scattered Doroba. I could write to the Governor if the hon. and gallant Gentleman really wants to know the actual numbers.
§ Major MILNERThe point is that the Government are proceeding, are they not, to move natives having no authority—
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat is not a question.
§ 17. Sir ROBERT HAMILTONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is intended by the proposed order-in-council relating to the highlands of Kenya to debar all non-European British subjects from holding any rights in land in that area in the colony; and whether he is satisfied that such action will be in conformity with the reasons for Lord Elgin's ruling in 1908
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERAs I stated in a reply on the 14th February, the proposed order-in-council will merely confirm a policy which has not been challenged by any Government in this country since its inception in 1906.
§ Sir R. HAMILTONIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the ruling of Lord 1106 Elgin was based on the undesirability of excluding British subjects from access to any area within a British colony, and that therefore he made an administrative order vis-a-vis Indians who were then British subjects, but now that Kenya has become a British colony the natives of the colony a-re also British subjects?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI am not sure that I see the relevance of that question. The simple point here is that ever since 1906 the alienation of agricultural land in the European Highlands has been granted only to Europeans. That policy is tantamount to a pledge and it has been followed by every Government since, and I have no intention of changing it.
§ Sir R. HAMILTONDoes the right hon. Gentleman realise that the position will be changed by an order-in-council which will legalise the position which has hitherto been only by adminstrative order?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI really do not think an order-in-council makes any effective difference. The hon. Gentleman admits that it has been a matter of policy, and indeed a pledge for 30 years that this policy should be followed. All that an order-in-council would do would be to follow that policy.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODMay I ask whether alienation includes leasing as well as transfer for sale?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI should like notice of that question.
§ 18. Sir R. HAMILTONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is intended to provide in the order-in-council, which is to be made in connection with the settlement of native lands in Kenya recommended by the Morris Carter Report, that, African subjects of the Crown will be prevented from obtaining a judicial decision in respect of 'any claims which they may desire to submit to the courts of justice?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERThe extinction by order-in-council of native rights, other than those held under title, outside the reconstituted and enlarged reserves is an essential part of the general settlement proposed by the commission.
§ Sir R. HAMILTONAs a result of that will it be impossible for a native British subject to bring a claim in a British court, and will it also be impossible for the land court, acting on behalf, of natives, to subject a claim to the decision of the court?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI would refer the hon. Gentleman to the Morris Carter Commission and the White Paper issued by His Majesty's Government giving their considered views thereupon. It is an essential part of the whole of the settlement that the Morris Carter Commission has recommended that these claims should be finally disposed of by the carrying out of their recommendations as regards additions to the reserves and compensation.
§ Sir R. HAMILTONDoes the right hon. Gentleman realise that the settlement recommended by the Morris Carter Commission is not by agreement with the natives, but is imposed on them, so that it makes it rather different from what it would be if there were an agreement?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERObviously the whole object of the Morris Carter Commission was to get the most considered report as to what was a fair and final settlement of these claims. Of course that is to be carried out by legislation, and if you do not carry it out the whole of the settlement as regards additions to the reserves and everything else goes by the board.
§ Mr. PALINGDid not the right hon. Gentleman state last week that these natives would not be removed from the Highlands except by their voluntary agreement, and what voluntary agreement is there if they cannot have a judicial decision on the matter?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERThat is a wholly separate and distinct point. I was asked whether, in advance of legislation, a man was going to be removed from a piece of land to which he had a legal title without agreement, and I said "No."
§ 19. Sir R. HAMILTONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is intended to sanction the granting of agricultural leases in the native reserves in Kenya to non-natives; 1108 if so, whether he will state the proposed maximum duration of such leases; whether the lessee at the termination thereof will be entitled to claim compensation from the lessors for unexhausted improvements; and whether the granting of such leases will require the approval of the native lessors and of the Land Trust Board?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERThe procedure recommended by the Kenya Land Commission for granting agricultural leases in native reserves is fully described in Part III, Chapter III, of their report. The points raised in the second and third parts of the hon. Member's question will no doubt be dealt with in the ordinance which is now being drafted in Kenya to give effect to the commission's recommendations. As regards the last part, it is proposed by the commission that leases of land under 10 acres shall be arranged by the provincial commissioner after' consultation with the local land board; but that leases of land exceeding 10 acres shall be subject to the veto of the Lands Trust Board or of the chief native commissioner if the board shall have delegated its powers of veto to him.
§ Sir R. HAMILTONWill the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to have attention drawn to the point about compensation at the end of a lease because the difficulty of obtaining compensation might lead to the lease becoming permanent?