§ 38. Mr. MANDERasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware, in connection with the contract given by his Department to a firm in the Potteries who pay a rate of wages 5d. per hour less than the Is. 5d. per hour rate agreed upon by the National Industrial Council of the cooperage industry, that the following firms in the Potteries, Messrs. Harrison and Son, Hardman, Limited, Josiah Wedgwood, Limited, Birchwood Colliery, Limited, and Hughes, as well as all the breweries, pay the ls. 5d. rate to their coopers; and whether he will now reconsider the matter?
§ The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir Ernest Bennett)The five firms to whom the hon. Member refers employ between them only nine adult coopers; these firms are engaged in industries to which cooperage is only ancillary. The great majority of the coopers employed by firms solely engaged in the cooperage trade in the Burslem district are in the employment of three other firms of whom the Post Office contractor is one. These firms between them employ 30 adult coopers and I understand pay those coopers at uniform rates. In the circumstances, the rates paid by the Post Office contractor are regarded as complying with the Fair Wages Clause. The contract in question is, however, due to expire in the course of a few weeks and the whole position will be further considered before a fresh contract is placed.
§ Mr. MANDERAre we to understand from the reply that there are two recognised rates in the Potteries, one rate for coopers where other people are employed and a lower scale, contrary to the national agreement, where coopers alone are employed. Is that the view of the Post Office?
§ sir E. BENNETTThat is not the view of the Post Office, but might remind the hon Member that Joint Industrial Council writ does not run in this area. I have already told him that there are only three firms in this area where coopers alone are employed and these firms pay uniform rates.
§ Mr. RHYS DAVIESWill the hon. Member tell the House whether the interpretation of the fair wages clause in this case rests exclusively on the Post Office who give the contract? Is that entirely satisfactory?
§ Sir E. BENNETTOf course, where we are running our own contracts we put into operation the fair wages resolution passed by this House. It may interest the hon. Member to know that the Post Office contractor who does our work in the Burslem area pays for the Post Office work at a rate of 1s 3d. to 1s. 5¼ d. per hour.
§ Mr. THORNEWhen this contract comes to be reviewed, will the Assistant Postmaster-General see that the firm in question is struck off the list?
§ Sir ASSHETON POWNALLMay I ask why the Post Office employ coopers at all? Are they interested in the brewing trade?
§ Sir E. BENNETTThe strong casks required by brewers are water, or rather, beer tight; our goods are of much lighter texture for holding insulators and the like.
§ Mr. PALINGAre we to understand that where the majority of firms pay the 1s. 5d. rate and the minority pay the lower rate the minority is to be taken as the deciding factor?
§ Sir E. BENNETTThe hon. Member cannot have listened to what I said. There are three firms engaged in cooperage employing 30 coopers. They must be regarded as representing the cooperage industry in this area. It surely cannot 1673 be suggested that the industry is represented by eight or nine coopers employed sporadically here and there by firms engaged in other forms of industry.
§ Mr. MANDERWhat is the rate of wages paid by firms who do not work for the Post Office?
§ Sir E. BENNETTI do not think that arises out of the question.
§ 39. Mr. DENMANasked the Minister of Labour what in the Potteries is the rate of wages for coopers commonly recognised by employers and trade societies; if there be no such rate, what is the rate in that district which in practice prevails amongst good employers; and, failing any such rate recognised or prevailing in that district, what is the rate recognised or prevailing in the nearest district in which the general industrial circumstances are similar?
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. R. S. Hudson)I regret that this information is not available in my Department.
§ Mr. DENMANDoes not the Minister of Labour regard himself as the responsible authority for providing these facts?
§ Mr. HUDSONNo, Sir. The interpretation of the fair wages clause is a matter, not for my Department, but for the particular contracting Department which makes individual contracts.
§ Mr. DENMANDo not the Employment Exchanges insist on observance of the fair wages clause in order to be able to decide whether an unemployed workman is to be sent to a particular firm or not?
§ Mr. HUDSONNo, Sir. If I had been in the possession of the information, I should not have told my hon. Friend that the information was not available in my Department.
§ Mr. BUCHANANIs it not advisable, in the interests of uniformity between Government Departments in administering the fair wages clause, that the Ministry of Labour should take over the task of getting accurate information and the co-ordinating of it, so that Government Departments which are not primarily concerned with wages should have information upon this point?
§ Mr. HUDSONNo, I do not think that my Department is the proper Department for trying to enforce the fair wages clause in the contracts of other Government Departments.