HC Deb 02 May 1934 vol 289 cc356-71

For the purpose of facilitating the effective exercise and performance of the powers and duties of the Minister in relation thereto, the Minister may make arrangements with the Board of Education respecting the provision, inspection, and supervision of authorised courses, and the powers and duties of the Minister may, under any such arrangements, be exercised and performed by the board on behalf of the Minister and with his authority under such conditions as he may think fit.—[Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

5.25 p.m.

Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

This proposal is founded on Section 16 of the Education Act of 1921, under which, in regard to school medical services, arrangements were made by which the Board of Education can act in the place of the Minister of Health. It will be remembered that under the Bill certain juvenile classes are set up and, therefore, we think that the Board of Education should have some jurisdiction in the regard to them. There is no doubt that the Board of Education will come in and co-operate with the Minister of Labour, and it is much better that it should be provided for in the Bill. I hope the Minister will accept the proposal.

5.27 p.m.


I beg to second the Motion.

If the Clause cannot be accepted in its entirety, I think it is essential that we should lay down some such provision, so that these courses, which we hope will be an increasing success in the future, will become part of our method of dealing with the unemployment question. There should be the closest possible co-operation between the Minister of Labour and the President of the Board of Education. I have always considered the Ministry of Labour as rather an unnecessary luxury, but the Board of Education is an efficient body which does help the national cause. For that reason, I should be glad to see the Board of Education take over and run some of these instructional centres. There is this further point, that most of these juveniles will have been under the Board of Education for a considerable number of years, and the proposed new Clause would, therefore, give continuity in their education, which is very valuable. For that reason, because it gives continuity and would, therefore, make for greater efficiency, I hope the Minister will accept it. It would mean co-ordination, at least it would mean co-ordination under the present Government. Under the late Government we should simply have got into a muddle. Under the present Government you will get co-ordination, in the best interests of the classes themselves.

5.29 p.m.


I hope that the Minister will favourably consider this new Clause. It would be a great advantage if the Minister of Labour could arrange to hand over this work entirely to the Board of Education. After all, the Board of Education are familiar with it. If that is not done, I am certain there will be overlapping and loss of efficiency. This is an opportunity for the Government to provide something which is really desired by educationists all over the country.

5.30 p.m.


This new Clause has brought the Board of Education into the limelight, and the House will forgive me, therefore, if I say a few words about it. The Board of Education is not insensible to the compliment implied in the new Clause, and on occasions the Board of Education is not unwilling to have greatness thrust upon it. But this is one of the exceptions, and I will shortly give the reasons. The new Clause is in some respects similar to an Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove) in Committee, an Amendment which aimed at giving the Board genuine and definite responsibility for these educational centres. If I may say so without any disrespect to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Tiverton (Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte), if I had to choose between the two Amendments I should prefer that of the hon. Member for Aberavon. In fact, I could not accept that Amendment and the Committee rejected it. This new Clause is much more nebulous and would involve possibly very considerable administrative difficulties. Broadly speaking, if it were passed, it would leave responsibility for the scheme as a whole with the Minister of Labour, but it would allow the most important of all his powers and duties to be exercised by the Board of Education, acting as agents of the Ministry of Labour. How those powers are to be exercised or how much of them is to be exercised it is impossible to tell from the wording of this new Clause.

My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Tiverton drew an analogy between this Clause and the second paragraph of Section 16 of the Education Act, which establishes relations between the Ministry of Health and the Board of Education. It is true that the Board does act as agent for the Ministry of Health for school medical services, but there is really no sound analogy between those functions and what is proposed by my hon. and gallant Friend here. Those medical services can be and are administered as a self-contained service. We have control of the children in the schools for nine years, for their school life. Obviously it is natural and indeed essential that that service should be administered by us. But it seems to me that that would not be the case with the juvenile instruction centres where the emphasis is on something quite different, namely, conditions relating to employment or unemployment. For that reason it would be quite fallacious to draw any analogy between the arrangements for school medical services and those suggested in the new Clause.


But the whole object of education is to fit children in every way for the job of life. Surely the Board of Education, working with the Ministry of Labour, might be able to take on certain of these instruction centres as a direct sequence, say in a very bad area, from the schools themselves?


All the cooperation that the Ministry of Labour requires for the purpose will be afforded. It seems to me that in this matter one Department should be definitely responsible. The position of the Board would be most unsatisfactory under a Clause of this kind. The Clause would obviously involve serious difficulties of administration and policy, and might even compromise the exceedingly good relations which now exist between the two Departments. I am sure the House would desire the Ministry of Labour to have full responsibility in this matter on the question of policy. There is the point that I mentioned in Committee, that this service is closely connected with employment and unemployment, not only existing but prospective. The Board of Education is not qualified to deal with such matters as the establishment of junior instruction centres, on which the Ministry of Labour is expert. Thirdly, the attendance at junior instruction centres must be bound up to some extent with procedure with regard to obtaining employment benefit. There the Minister of Labour is obviously the authority and he should not delegate his functions.

The new Clause suggests that the Board of Education should make arrangements respecting the provision and supervision of authorised courses. Obviously that should come under the Ministry of Labour, which is responsible for the finance. Under this Clause no financial responsibility is delegated to the Board of Education. If it were, the Board might well have responsibility for the whole scheme. "Arrangements.… respecting the supervision of authorised courses" is a very vague term. Supervision covers a multitude of sins. We have no guidance in the new Clause as to what the types of duty should be. The Board is asked to make arrangements with regard to inspection. There I can say definitely that the Board will, of course, assist the Ministry of Labour, and it seems to me that that is where the best kind of co-operation by the Board can be exercised. Our inspectors have definite qualifications for the purpose and will be placed at the disposal of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. In that way the fullest and most satisfactory co-operation will be secured between the two Departments. For the reasons that I have stated I hope that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Tiverton will substitute co-operation for delegation in his mind and wishes, because in the circumstances I think that co-operation is the best way of carrying out what he desires.

5.37 p.m.


I must say that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education has been singularly unconvincing in his arguments against acceptance of responsibility by the Board of Education. It is not my job to defend the drafting of a new Clause brought forward by three supporters of the National Government. When it comes to finding fault with the arguments put forward in support of the Clause I am afraid that I must fundamentally disagree with the Parliamentary Secretary. The hon. Gentleman seems to forget that he is responsible to this House for education, and that the whole work of education should be his job under his supervision, and, if I may pay him the compliment, also under his inspiration. According to its light the Ministry of Labour does its work extraordinarily well, but its job, its technique, is not education. It has not the staff for that purpose; it has not the organisation; it has not the machinery and inspectors. But from a practical point of view, from my own knowledge of the junior training classes which have been working more or less successfully for some years, it would be a tremendous advantage if the staff, buildings and machinery were under the inspection of the Board of Education.

It may not be within the knowledge of the Parliamentary Secretary that the vast majority of these classes are in buildings under the local education authorities. Nearly all the teachers, especially the head teachers, are lent by the education authorities for the purpose. There are certain difficulties about that because, as he knows, the question of superannuation comes in when they are lent for another purpose for carrying out the provisions of Unemployment Insurance. When a teacher is lent for a purpose of carrying out that particular job all sorts of difficulties come up about his status as an educationist and as to superannuation.

But there is a second and perhaps more practical difficulty, from the point of view of the trainees. There is in existence all over the country a lot of training classes for able-bodied unemployed. They are inherited from the old Poor Law; they are the direct children of the old Poor Law schools and the old machinery under the Poor Law. In the past most of the training centres were worked in connection with workhouses. Since they have been taken over by county councils most of the classes have been under men trained in the old workhouse tradition. In London one of the great difficulties in organising for adults the vast machinery of training centres during the last two years has been the hostility of the men concerned because of the Poor Law traditions.

I want to be fair to the Ministry of Labour. To its credit it tried to co-operate with the local education authorities. At any rate I can speak with some knowledge of London. In so far as the two have co-operated, the classes have on the whole worked smoothly. But there is the other side of the picture. In the case of public assistance under the Ministry of Health there has not been that co-operation, and the spirit of the adult training classes has been the Poor Law spirit, the spirit of test work, and the atmosphere has been foreign to the people concerned. These classes should be inspired by the spirit associated with the education authorities. They should be educational and not penal. They should not be used as a form of test work, but rather in order to train and develop and encourage these young people who find themselves out of employment and are anxious to get back to work again.


I can give the hon. Member that assurance.


What assurance?


The assurance that the hon. Member has asked for.


The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour is quite able to make a speech and perhaps he will make clear to what assurance he refers. I want these classes to be education classes, not under the aegis of the Ministry of Labour, but under the Board of Education. Then we shall be certain that they will really be educational and will have the same character and form as ordinary continuation schools; but if they are left to the machinery of the Ministry of Labour there is a real danger that the new authority may staff them with men from the Poor Law institutions and may use the centres not so much for educational purposes as to give them the form and character of test work. I do not particularly like the character of the proposed new Clause, but it represents the principle which we are after, and for that reason I shall support it.

5.45 p.m.


I find it extremely difficult to understand what the proposed new Clause means, but it shows a glimmer of light as to what is really required in regard to these children. We welcome it in so far as it shows that there are sections of Members behind the Government who are becoming uneasy about the junior instruction centres and the activities of the Ministry of Labour in relation to these children. I gather from an interjection by the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) that even he is becoming concerned as to whether these children would be better off under the Ministry of Labour or under the Board of Education. I have the impression that supporters of the Govermen are now feeling more and more that the Ministry of Labour is not the Ministry which ought to have charge of these children, but that, in order that the children should have the best educational facilities, it is necessary that they should come under the Board of Education.


I do not go into the question of whether one Ministry or the other is the better. They are both excellent departments but I think that in certain circumstances I would like to see the Board of Education having fuller play in this matter.


I am more than ever confused as to what the hon. Member really wants. He has not clarified the position but I take it that he has at least reached a half-way house and is anxious that at any rate, some of these children should be under the Board of Education. But we all know that such a proposal as this would be administratively impossible. If hon. Members look at the new Clause they will see that it still leaves the children under the Ministry of Labour—that the ultimate authority in the matter would still be that Ministry, and the Board of Education would merely be its agent. I hold to the view that that would be a most undignified position for the Board of Education to occupy. I object to the Ministry of Labour having power to determine this matter. I moved an Amendment in Committee which was designed to throw the whole responsibility for educating these children upon the Board of Education. We on this side take the clear, logical and practical view that that would be better for the children and would be administratively possible, for the Board of Education to have complete control over these centres and complete jurisdiction over the children between 14 and 16.

The new Clause if carried would only confuse the situation and I do not believe that it could be carried out. Nevertheless it is as I say evidence of the fact that some light is penetrating the minds of hon. Members opposite. We are willing to support them in their struggling efforts to see the light and we shall be delighted to offer the hon. and gallant Member opposite, and his Friends who have so suddenly become interested in the educational side of these children's lives, an opportunity of declaring their opinion in the Division Lobby. I dare not venture to speak for my own party on all occasions but on this occasion, although a humble backbencher, I think I can speak for all my colleagues in saying that we are delighted to find this glimmer of light among hon. Members opposite. We shall be glad to fan it into full flame. We shall therefore invite the hon. and gallant Member and his Friends to go with us—in pleasant company and with most enlightened people, educationally—into the Division Lobby in support of the new Clause.

5.50 p.m.


The proposed new Clause which has been moved on behalf of the County Councils Association has at least done one thing. It has drawn from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education the information that the board's inspectors will be at the disposal of the Ministry of Labour for the inspection of these courses. I am glad to hear that that is to be so, although I agree to a certain extent with the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove) that dual control in this matter is dangerous. Nothing is said in Clause 14 of the Bill as to supervision and inspection and to my mind nothing is more more important than that there should be efficient supervision and inspection of these courses. Of the courses that exist, some we know are good, but when we consider the fact that boys and girls from 14 to 18 will be attending these courses and that the teaching of young people between those ages is very difficult we must realise that a sufficient and efficient staff will be necessary and that the inspection of the courses ought to be thorough. This is an experiment. We hope that it will be successful but there are grave difficulties, and if the experiment does not succeed it will be a strong argument for raising the school age to 15. In view of the information given by the Parliamentary Secretary I think the position has been considerably relieved.

5.53 p.m.


I only intervene because of the speech of the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove). Some of us on this side have refrained from intervening in these discussions, while opponents of the Government have spoken freely, but there is a point at which it is difficult to refrain from replying and I feel bound, especially when the hen. Member talks as he has talked about going to a Division upon this New Clause, to make this point. I think the hon. Member is confusing education with something else. A mass of difficulties attaches to the education of children be- tween 11 and 15. There is the question of the dignity and status of schools, the question of areas and so forth, and it is the duty of the education authorities to grapple with those difficulties. But the matter which we are considering now is primarily connected with employment. To confuse this problem with the problem of education would be to spoil our real chances of that educational advance, which I want just as much as the hon. Member for Aberavon. It is not a question of seeing the light at all. I am just as purblind now—from the point of view of the hon. Member for Aberavon—as I was before his speech.

The Chelmsford Report and other reports have dealt with this question, and the existing arrangement has been worked out in close co-operation between the Ministry of Labour and the Board of Education. In some cases it is the Board of Education which runs the show, and in some cases it is the Ministry of Labour—for very definite reasons in each case and the arrangement is working well all over the country. But as the Parliamentary Secretary has said, there is a strong reason for connecting the junior instruction centres with employment and with the recruitment of labour and it is for that reason and that reason only, that we on this side would not dream of supporting this New Clause or the more comprehensive Amendment moved at an earlier stage of the proceedings on this Bill by the hon. Member for Aberavon. If the hon. and gallant Member who puts forward this New Clause has done so for other reasons, if he and other hon. Members would like to see the school-age raised, that is another question, but when we are dealing with junior instruction centres we must have regard to the fact that the whole weight of experience and the evidence, from the Chelmsford Report onwards, goes to prove that the present method is the best method of tackling the problem.

5.55 p.m.


I find it difficult to follow the arguments of the last speaker. I think it is true that those who are conducting these junior instruction centres must have in mind to some extent the ultimate form of employment to be followed by those receiving instruction but, primarily, the centres are to be for the purpose of giving instruction to these young people during periods of unemployment. For my part, I frankly admit that there are difficulties attaching to the scheme. A person who attends a junior instruction centre may attend there for a week, or a month or two months—no one can tell how long—and it is therefore difficult to adumbrate a definite course of instruction for a given period of time in each case. I acknowledge that difficulty, but this question still arises. If you are going to set up instruction centres, which organisation ought to be primarily responsible for them, the Ministry of Labour or the Board of Education? I think this is clearly the job, not of the Ministry of Labour but of the Board of Education. I admit that the Minister of Labour would like to provide as good a form of education as is possible within the limits of his opportunities, but after all, it is not the function of his Department. His Department does not specialise in education. It is not their duty.

The education of young people at this period of life is not a simple matter. It requires particular attention and consideration, and I think that those who are engaged from day to day in dealing with educational problems are entitled to a final opinion upon this question. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education mentioned that the board's inspectors would be available to supervise what is being done in these centres. I have some knowledge of the work of the inspectors, and the conditions under which it is done, and I would not derogate at all from the excellence of that work. But if this duty is not part of their normal work associated with the board, the tendency will be to regard it as secondary in importance to their other duties. I recall a parallel case. I speak from memory and subject to correction, but I think I am right in saying that certain schools under the control of the Home Office are inspected on behalf of the Home Office by inspectors of the Board of Education. I have no doubt that they do that quite honestly and conscientiously, but the effect of it, I think, is still what I submit would be the case here, namely, that inspection of the Home Office schools, not being part and parcel of their day-to-day task, tends to become rather secondary.

May I put this further point? Inspectors of the Board of Education will inspect these centres. What effect will that inspection have? Can they make recommendations, and what authority will their recommendations have with the Minister of Labour? When an inspector of the Board of Education reports upon a school within the ambit of the board's normal work, that is automatically attended to, but I wonder what measure of acceptance an adverse report upon the educational character of the service given in a junior instruction centre would have with the Minister of Labour in these conditions. I submit those points because I fear that the Parliamentary Secretary has not seized the real feeling that there is in this House upon this question. If there is anything at all to justify setting up these instructional centres. that very fact justifies the Board of Education accepting responsibility for them educationally.

I have said that nobody can give so good a type of guidance in this matter on educational grounds as can the Board of Education. It is an expert job. You cannot have inexpert minds applying themselves to it, and the job of carrying through an important piece of educational work within a given and limited period of time is more an expert job than is the task of spreading educational effort over a much longer period of time. Therefore, I submit still to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education that he really has not met the gravamen of our case, namely, that the very nature of the task which these instruction centres involve is of so delicate and expert a character that only the Board of Education itself could discharge it efficiently.

6.4 p.m.


I do not rise to continue the Debate but to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education if he will be good enough to enlighten the House with regard to the point on which my hon. Friend the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) asked for information, namely, as to whether teachers who may leave a school in order to take up work in these autho- rised courses or juvenile instruction centres are prejudiced in their pension rights by so doing. I know that many of the instructors in these centres do not have any pension rights, and that creates a difficulty in obtaining the best type of man for this type of instruction. I shall be glad if my hon. Friend will clear up that point. I will just add that we, on these benches, are in entire accord with what has been said by the last speaker, the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones). We regret that all this work by people up to the age of 18 should not have remained under the control and guidance of the Board of Education. Still, having regard to the fact that this Is an Education Bill, which potentially raises the school leaving age to 18 for a very large number of people, it is obvious that there should be the closest co-operation between the two Departments.


Will the Parliamentary Secretary answer the question about superannuation?

6.6 p.m.


Certificated teachers do not lose any superannuation rights by being employed in junior instruction centres or classes. Service in these courses by such teachers or teachers leaving training colleges is recognised for superannuation purposes in exactly the same way as service in ordinary schools.

6.7 p.m.


Am I not right in assuming that those teachers who come directly out of a training college without previous experience in any form of State education service do not come under the superannuation provisions—that there is a gap there? I should like that point to be looked into.


I will certainly look into it, as I cannot say at the moment whether that is so or not.

Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE

In view of my hon. Friend's reply, I beg to ask leave to withdraw my proposed new Clause.



Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The House divided : Ayes, 56; Noes, 271.

Division No. 229.] AYES. [5.6 p.m.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) Cape, Thomas Daggar, George
Batey, Joseph Cocks, Frederick Seymour Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Cove, William G. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield) Cripps, Sir Stafford Dobble, William
Buchanan, George Curry, A. C. Edwards, Charles
Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Salter, Dr. Alfred
Foot, Dingle (Dundee) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Smith, Tom (Normanton)
Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin) Kirkwood, David Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Lawson, John James Thorne, William James
George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea) Leonard, William Tinker, John Joseph
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Logan, David Gilbert Wedgwood. Rt. Hon. Josiah
Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro, W.) Lunn, William White, Henry Graham
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) McEntee, Valentine L. Williams. David (Swansea, East)
Grundy, Thomas W. Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)
Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvll) Mander, Geoffrey le M. Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)
Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd) Maxton, James Wilmot, John
Harris, Sir Percy Owen, Major Goronwy Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)
Healy, Cahir Parkinson, John Allen Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Hicks, Ernest George Pickering, Ernest H.
Holdsworth, Herbert Rathbone, Eleanor TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Jenkins, Sir William Roberts, Aled (Wrexham) Mr. G. Macdonald and Mr. Groves.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Emmott, Charles E. G. C. Locker-Lampson. Rt. Hn. G. (Wd. Gr'n)
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) Emrys-Evans, P. V. Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. Erskine. Lord (Weston-super-Mars) Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.
Albery, Irving James Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C.(Blackpool) Mabane, William
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Essenhigh, Reginald Clare MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G.(Partick)
Applln, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. Everard, W. Lindsay MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)
Atholl, Duchess of Fermoy, Lord McCorquodale, M. S.
Balniel, Lord Fuller, Captain A. G. MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Galbraith, James Francis Wallace McEwen, Captain J. H. F.
Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury) Ganzonl, Sir John McKle, John Hamilton
Beaumont, Hn. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.) Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton
Barnays, Robert Gllmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John McLean, Major Sir Alan
Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B. Gledhill, Gilbert McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)
Bllndell, James Gluckstein, Louis Halle Magnay, Thomas
Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton Glyn. Major Ralph G. C. Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. Goff, Sir Park Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.
Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) Goldie, Noel B. Marsden, Commander Arthur
Brass, Captain Sir William Goodman, Colonel Albert W. Martin. Thomas B.
Broadbent, Colonel John Gower, Sir Robert Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'ri'd, N.) Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y) Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Milne, Charles
Browne, Captain A. C. Gunsten, Captain D. W. Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tfd & Chlsw'k)
Buchan-Hepburn. P. G. T. Guy, J. C. Morrison Mclson. A. Hugh Elsdale
Bullock, Captain Malcolm Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)
Burton, Colonel Henry Walter Hales, Harold K. Moreing, Adrian C.
Cadogan, Hon. Edward Hamilton, Sir George (llford) Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)
Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) Hanbury, Cecil Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Campbell-Johnston. Malcolm Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties)
Carver, Major William H. Hartington, Marquess of Moss, Captain H. J.
Castlereagh, Viscount Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n) Muirhead, Lieut. Colonel A. J.
Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City) Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Munro, Patrick
Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.) Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.
Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. Nicholson. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)
Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford) Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid
Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton-le-Spring) Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P Nunn, William
Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) Hepworth, Joseph Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.
Choriton, Alan Ernest Leotric Hornby, Frank Palmer, Francis Noel
Christie, James Archibald Horsbrugh, Florence Patrick, Colin M.
Clarke, Frank Howard, Tom Forrest Peake, Captain Osbert
Clarry, Reginald George Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport) Pearson, William Q.
Clayton, Sir Christopher Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) Peat, Charles U.
Clydesdale, Marquess of Hunter. Capt. M. J. (Brigg) Penny, Sir George
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Hurd, Sir Percy Percy, Lord Eustace
Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Perkins, Walter R. D.
Conant, R. J. E. Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romt'd) Petherick, M.
Cook. Thomas A. Jamleson, Douglas Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Cooke, Douglas Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West) Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)
Cooper, A. Duff Ker, J. Campbell Pike, Cecil F.
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) Radford, E. A.
Crooke, J. Smedley Knight, Holford Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)
Crookshank. Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) Knox, Sir Alfred Ramsbotham, Herwald
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Galnsb'ro) Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton Rawson, Sir Cooper
Cross, R. H. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)
Crossley, A. C. Latham, Sir Herbert Paul Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)
Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard Law. Sir Alfred Reid, William Allan (Derby)
Dalkeith, Earl of Leckie, J. A. Renwick, Major Gustav A.
Denville, Alfred Leech. Dr. J. W. Rickards, George William
Dickie, John p. Leighton. Major B. E. P. Ropner, Colonel L.
Duncan, James A. L.(Kensington, N.) Lennox-Boyd, A. T. Ross Taylor. Walter (Woodbridge)
Eady, George H. Levy, Thomas Runge, Norah Cecil
Eales, John Frederick Lewis, Oswald Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy)
Eden, Robert Anthony Liddall, Walter S. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Edmondson, Major A. J. Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock; Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield. B'tslds)
Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey Llewellin, Major John J. Rutherford, John (Edmonton)
Eimley, viscount Lloyd, Geoffrey Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)
Salmon, Sir Isldore Storey, Samuel Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham) Strauss, Edward A. Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart Strickland, Captain W. F, Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.
Savery, Samuel Servington Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Scone, Lord Summersby, Charles H. Wayland, Sir William A.
Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell) Sutellffe, Harold Wells, Sydney Richard
Shepperson, Sir Ernest W. Tate, Mavis Constane Weymouth, Viscount
Shute, Colonel J. J. Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. (p'dd'gt'n, S.) Whiteside, Borras Noel H.
Simmonds, Oliver Edwin Templeton, William P. Whyte, Jardlne Bell
Sinclair, Col. T.(Queen's Unv., Belfast) Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D. Thorp, Linton Theodore Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertfd)
Somervell, Sir Donald Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor) Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford) Wise, Alfred R.
Soper, Richard Touche, Gordon Cosmo Withers, Sir John James
Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount
Southby, Commander Archibald F. J Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. Womersley, Walter James
Spencer, Captain Richard A. Turton, Robert Hugh Worthington, Dr. John V.
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland) Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)
Steventon, James Wallace, John (Dunfermline) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Stones, James Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) Captain Austin Hudson and Major
George Davies.
Division No. 230.] AYES. [6.8 p.m.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) Griffith, F. Kingslay (Middlesbro', W.) Milner, Major James
Batey, Joseph Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'tiss)
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Grundy, Thomas W. Owen, Major Goronwy
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield) Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvll) Parkinson, John Allen
Buchanan, George Harris, Sir Percy Rathbone, Eleanor
Cape, Thomas Healy, Cahir Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)
Cocks, Frederick Seymour Hicks, Ernest George Salter, Dr. Alfred
Cove, William G. Holdsworth, Herbert Smith, Tom (Normanton)
Cripps, Sir Stafford Jenkins, Sir William Thorne, William James
Curry, A. C. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Tinker, John Joseph
Daggar, George Jonas, Morgan (Caerphilly) White, Henry Graham
Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) Kirkwood, David Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lawson, John Jamas Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)
Dobbia, William Leonard, William Williams, Dr. John H. (Lianelly)
Edwards. Charlas Lunn, William Wilmot, John
Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen) Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Foot, Dingle (Dundee) McEntee, Valantine L.
Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot Mr. Groves and Mr. D. Graham.
George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea) Maxton, James.
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) Dickle, John P. Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. Duncan, James A. L. (Kansington, N.) Ker, J. Campbell
Albery, Irving James Eady, George H. Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Eastwood, John Francis Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger
Applln, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. Eden, Robert Anthony Knox, Sir Alfred
Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton) Edmondson, Major A. J. Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton
Atholl, Duchess of Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey Lambert, Rt. Hon. George
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Elliston, Captain George Sampson Latham, Sir Herbert Paul
Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet) Elmley, Viscount Law, Sir Alfred
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Emmott, Charles E. G. C. Law, Richard K. (Hull, S. W.)
Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury) Emrys-Evans, P. V. Leckle, J. A.
Beaumont. Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th. C) Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mars) Leech, Dr. J. W.
Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest Nathaniel Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool) Leighton, Major B. E. P.
Bernays, Robert Essenhigh, Reginald Clare Levy, Thomas
Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B. Evarard, W. Lindsay Lewis, Oswald
Blindell, James Ford. Sir Patrick J. Liddall, Walter S.
Bossom, A. C. Fremantle, Sir Francis Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)
Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton Fuller, Captain A. G. Llewellin, Major John J.
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. Ganzonl, Sir John Lloyd, Geoffrey
Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hn. G. (Wd. Gr'n)
Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander
Brass, Captain Sir William Glossop, C. W. H. Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.
Broadbent, Colonel John Gluckstein, Louis Halle MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G.(Partick)
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Goff, Sir Park MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Goldie, Noel B. McCorquodale, M. S.
Brown, Brig. Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y) Goodman, Colonel Albert W. McEwen, Captain J. H. F.
Browne, Captain A. C. Gower, Sir Robert McKie, John Hamilton
Buchan Hepburn, P. G. T. Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton
Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslle Grenfell, E. C. (City of London) McLean, Major Sir Alan
Cadogan, Hon. Edward Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hen. John McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)
Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. Macqulsten, Frederick Alexander
Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm Gunston, Captain D. W, Magnay, Thomas
Carver, Major William H. Guy, J. C. Morrison Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.
Castlereagh, Viscount Hales, Harold K. Margesson, Capt Rt. Hon. H. D. R.
Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City) Hamilton, Sir George (llford) Marsden, Commander Arthur
Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.) Hanbury, Cecil Martin, Thomas B.
Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton-le-Spring) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)
Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) Hartland, George A. Mayhaw, Lieut.-Colonel John
Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leotric Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n) Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)
Christie, James Archibald Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)
Clarke, Frank Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) Milne, Charles
Clarry, Reginald George Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbart M. Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)
Clayton, Sir Christopher Heneage, Lieut-Colonel Arthur P. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Clydesdale, Marquess of Hepworth, Joseph Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale
Cobb, Sir Cyril Hornby, Frank Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres
Colfox, Major William Philip Horsbrugh, Florence Morelng, Adrian C.
Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfray Howard, Tom Forrest Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)
Colvllie, Lieut.-Colonel J. Howitt, Dr. Alfred B. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Conant, R. J. E. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Morrison, William Shepherd
Cook, Thomas A. Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport) Moss, Captain H. J.
Cooke, Douglas Hume, Sir George Hopwood Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.
Courthope, Colonel Sir George L. Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) Munro, Patrick
Crooke, J. smedley Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.
Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) Hurd, Sir Percy Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)
Cross, R. H. Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd) Normand, Rt. Hon. Wllfrid
Cruddas, Lieut-Colonel Bernard Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.) Nunn, William
Dalkeith, Earl of Jamleson, Douglas O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh
Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery) Jesson, Major Thomas E. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.
Denville, Alfred Jonas, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Palmer, Francis Noel
Patrick, Colin M. Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l) Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles
Peake, Captain Osbert Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham) Thorp, Linton Theodore
Pearson, William G. Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Peat, Charles U. Scone, Lord Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)
Penny, Sir George Selley, Harry R. Touche, Gordon Cosmo
Perkins, Walter R. D. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Petherick, M. Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell) Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar) Turton, Robert Hugh
Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n, Bllston) Shepperson, Sir Ernest W. Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)
Pike, Cecil F. Simmonds, Oliver Edwin Wallace, John (Dunfermline)
Pownall, Sir Assheton Sinclair, Cot. T. (Queen's Unv., Belfast) Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wailsend)
Radford, E. A. Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D. Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian) Smith, Louls W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.
Ramsbotham, Herwald Smith, R. W. (Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.) Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Ramsden, Sir Eugene Somervell, Sir Donald Wayland, Sir William A.
Rawson, Sir Cooper Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor) Wells, Sidney Richard
Ray, Sir William Soper, Richard Weymouth, Viscount
Read, Arthur C. (Exeter) Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E. Whiteside, Borras Noel H.
Reid, David D. (County Down) Southby, Commander Archibatd R. J. Whyte, Jardlne Bell
Reid, James S. C. (Stirling) Spencer, Captain Richard A. Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
Reid, William Allan (Derby) Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland) Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)
Remer, John R. Stevenson, James Wlndsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Renwick, Major Gustav A, Stones, James Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Rickards, George William Storey, Samuel Wise, Alfred R.
Ropner, Colonel L. Strauss, Edward A. Withers, Sir John James
Ross, Ronald D. Strickland, Captain W. F. Womersley, Walter James
Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge) Sueter, Rear-Admirail Sir Murray F. Worthington, Dr. John V.
Runge, Norah Cecil Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)
Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy) Summersby, Charles H.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Sutcliffe, Harold TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tslde) Tate, Mavis Constance Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert-Ward
Rutherford, John (Edmonton) Templeton, William P. and Major George Davies.