§ The Unemployment Assistance Board may enter into an arrangement for the payment of allowances by any society, body, or association with which an arrangement has been made under the Unemployment Insurance Acts for the payment of unemployment benefit.—[Mr. Hicks.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ 5.14 p.m.
§ Mr. HICKSI beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
I do not think it will be necessary to argue the case at any great length, but I should like to remind the House that ever since unemployment insurance has been in operation trade union rules have been used for building up the methods of distribution of benefit. The trade unions have been solicited and have willingly cooperated with the Government departments in the distribution of benefit. Right through, apart from standard benefit, in regard to uncovenanted benefit and transitional payments, societies having an arrangement under Section 17 have been able to use their machinery for the distribution of payments which have come outside the ordinary category of standard benefit.
We are desirous that the Government should avail themselves of the opportunity of this new Clause to make it possible for the Unemployment Assistance Board to enter into such an arrangement with the trade unions in the future. I think from their experience the Department and the Minister are perfectly satisfied with the arrangements which have prevailed in the past. The distribution of benefits has been satisfactory. Indeed, if it is measured by the number of prose- 354 cutions which have taken place on account of improper receipt of payments, the working of direct claims and indirect claims, the decision is favourable to the trade unions. I am aware that at the end of 26 weeks, the statutory period when unemployment payment ceases, payments are made on a basis of need, but I would suggest seriously that if they agree to the new Clause only about 30 per cent. of those eligible to receive benefit would come under that head while 70 per cen would receive benefit by direct claim. The trade unions have a long experience in regard to the payment of benefits. Long before there was any unemployment insurance in this country they were distributing benefits, and in addition they are in close touch with their Members and with employment, while they also provide ways and means for registering.
Before the Minister turns down this proposal I hope he will consider it very sympathetically. It would be all to the advantage of the Unemployment Assistance Board if they had the opportunity of coming to some arrangement with bodies like the trade unions. It is not compulsory, the Clause says that they may enter into an arrangement. If the opportunity is missed now, I am afraid that we shall find great difficulty later on in incorporating it in the machinery of the Bill. The experience they will obtain as a consequence of working through the agency of societies and bodies like this will enable them at the end of the period either to terminate the arrangement or to continue it, whichever they may consider desirable. In the opinion of a number of societies who for a large number of years have paid supplementary unemployment benefit to State benefit, and 355 unemployment benefit apart from State benefit, and uncovenanted benefit and transitional payments, it is thought that the Government would be well advised to take advantage of their experience. I hope the Government will give facilities for the adoption of the new Clause.
§ 5.20 p.m.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY OF LABOUR (Mr. R. S. Hudson)I do not think that hon. Members opposite will accuse us of any lack of sympathy or appreciation of the work which trade unions have done under Section 17. It has been of advantage in many ways. Owing to the difficulties which trade unions, in common with other organisations, have had to face in the course of the last few years, a certain number of them have had to abandon arrangements under Section 17, and hon. Members opposite will be aware that my right hon. Friend and I have gone out of our way to stretch the rules and regulations as far as we could in order to enable as large a number of trade unions as possible to continue their arrangements under Section 17 during times of difficulties. They will, I am sure appreciate what has been done. The hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks), in moving this new Clause, laid his finger on the difficulty. The payment of standard benefit through trade unions is a perfectly logical arrangement, because the original insurance scheme was largely based on the experience of trade unions, a long experience, and very many of their rules were incorporated in it. Those trade unions which take advantage of Section 17 pay benefit out of their own funds at the same time as they pay benefit from the Unemployment Fund.
When you come to the question of allowances under Part II, different considerations arise. The only ground on which an arrangement of this sort could be justified would be if the trade unions concerned were willing to accept the principle that these payments by the Unemployment Assistance Board under Part II should be regarded as supplementary to the out-of-work payments which they themselves make from their own trade union funds. From what I know of the trade unions I do not think they would agree to accept that proposition, and, that being so, I do not think it is appropriate that we should continue Section 17 356 arrangements for the men who cease to be entitled to benefit and come under Part II. On the other hand, there may be circumstances in which the board will desire to take advantage of the experience of trade unions, and I can well imagine that in a number of cases they will decide that it will be to the advantage of both if they appoint the trade union, and more particularly a trade union official of a certain branch in a particular area, as their agent for the purpose of making these payments. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent them from doing that. Under the Bill, they will have full power to do it. The course I have indicated represents, I think, a practical way out of the difficulty without incurring any of the rather serious technical difficulties which would be involved by the insertion of the new Clause. Nearly everything which the hon. Member wants will be obtained by the methods I have suggested, and, therefore, I hope that he will not press the Clause.
§ Mr. HICKSI regret that the Parliamentary Secretary has not been able to accept the new Clause, but, after what he has said, I do not propose to press it.
§ Motion, and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.