CLAUSE 58.—(Temporary continuation of transitional payments.) (Hansard, 26 March 1934)

Mr. HUDSON
I beg to move, in page 52, line 36, at the end, to add: (4) For the purposes of this section, an interim determination made in accordance with regulations made under Article 3 of the said Order shall be deemed to be a determination made under paragraph (3) of Article 1 of that Order. Under the Clause as it stands, any determinations of transitional payments 1770 which are current when the Act comes into force will continue until the expiry of the determinations, in order to give the board time to deal with what would otherwise have been hardships. This is to make sure that interim transitional payments also are continued.

§ Mr. RHYS DAVIES
May I intervene to ask the hon. Gentleman if he will give us an explanation of what is actually meant by Sub-section (3)? That Subsection says: Notwithstanding anything in this Act, an insurance officer shall not himself disallow any application for transtional payments on the ground that the applicant is not normally employed in… We want to know whether there is anything in the Sub-section that will stiffen up the provisions that we have already passed in the preceding Clauses. It refers only to the insurance officer, and debars him from doing certain things. We were wondering what relation these provisions had to the others.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN
This Sub-section deals with "not normally insurable." May I take it that the definition of "not normally insurable" is the definition here; that is, that it is a rough-and-ready definition for the Umpire that after a certain period of time a certain person shall be presumed to have become not normally insurable? In the case of people over 55 years of age the period is five years; for people younger, it is correspondingly less. Am I to take it that this will continue the present system, or will the system be made better so that all types get better treatment?

Mr. HUDSON
This is not a definition, but a condition which must be fulfilled for the receipt of transitional payment. Transitional payment will cease to exist when Part I comes into operation, and this provision is inserted in order to make it quite clear that the insurance officer, who is given certain power under an earlier Clause of Part I to disallow on his own account, shall not be able to disallow under "not normally." It is a safeguard put in to make the position quite clear.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN
I understood from earlier speeches of the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary that everyone would come under Part II unless definitely ruled out. It seems to me that, if the "not normally" condition is to continue, the burden on the local authorities will continue as before. The great bulk of the able-bodied poor have been refused benefit under the "not normally" condition, apart from those 1772 who never came within insurance and may be brought in now. The present positior is that the Umpire has ruled that, in the case of a person over the age of 55, five years' constant unemployment is sufficient, and the man has to rebut the presumption that is raised. I think it is roughly speaking three years below the age of 55. Consequently, the position of the local authorities is going to be the same. I thought that, when the Bill was introduced, the "not normally" condition was abolished, and I was informed that it was abolished. How is it now that it comes in here? How can the insurance officer have the right to refuse benefit if the "not normally" condition is abolished? The Parliamentary Secretary definitely stated at that Box, and he was right, that the "not normally" condition has gone. How, then, does it come in here? It seems to me rather curious, having said that it is abolished, now to say that an insurance officer shall not have the right to disallow benefit. How can he have a right if it does not exist?

§ The Minister of LABOUR (Sir Henry Betterton)
Perhaps I can explain the matter. The effect of the Subsection to which the hon. Member refers is to prevent an insurance officer during the transitory period from himself disallowing benefit under the "not normally" condition, and requires him to refer the matter to the court of referees. As the hon. Member says, the "not normally" condition will disappear on the second appointed day, and the Subsection is necessary because of the extension of the powers of the insurance officer to disallow claims under Clause 12 of the Bill. This is really a transitional provision until Part II come into operation.

Mr. HUDSON
If I may add a word, this will only have effect during the short period between the times when the Bill comes into operation and transitional payments cease. Until the board take over, there will be a period when the insurance officer will have this duty.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN
Is it contemplated that anybody's benefit will be disallowed during that period on the ground that he 1773 is not normally in insurable employment? It seems to me to be silly.