HC Deb 23 July 1934 vol 292 cc1618-24

Considered in Committee.

[Sir DTENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.] I. Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1933, that the aggregate expenditure on Navy services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services, and that as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services over the net Expenditure is £311,846 17s. 8d, namely:

£ s. d.
Total Surpluses 1,049,262 15 2
Total Deficits 737,415 17 6
Net Surplus £311,846 17 8

And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Navy Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Navy Services.

Resolved, That the application of such sums he sanctioned."—[Mr. Ruff Cooper.] II. Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1933, that the aggregate Expenditure on Army Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Army Services over the net Expenditure is £509,761 3s. 2d., namely:

SCHEDULE.
No. of Vote. Army Services 1932, Votes. Deficits. Surpluses.
Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure. Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts. Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure. Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.
£ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d.
1 Pay, etc., of the Army 2,672 5 9 — — 33,222 13 9
2 Territorial Army and reserve Forces. — 6,337 4 4 55,429 7 3 —
3 Medical Services — 3,170 3 1 21,296 3 1 —
4 Educational Establishments 22,380 5 1 11,066 19 5 — —
5 Quartering and Movements — — 28,153 18 9 55,810 4 3
6 Supplies, Road Transport, and Remounts. — 33,935 11 3 241,926 19 9 —
7 Clothing — 43,011 16 4 61,265 8 5 —
8 General Stores — 39,886 8 7 132,806 12 5 —
9 Warlike Stores — 152,008 18 11 49,478 19 0 —
10 Works, Buildings, and Lands 23,079 15 0 — — 1,086 10 9
11 Miscellaneous Effective Services. 2,004 3 0 4,971 18 5 — —
12 War Office — — 10,991 5 4 763 7 2
13 Half-Pay, Retired Pay, and other Non-effective Charges for Officers. — 9,153 6 5 51,930 3 5 —
14 Pensions and other Non-effective Charges for Warrant Officers, Non-commissioned Officers, Men, and others. — — 60,914 7 10 68,061 15 11
15 Civil Superannuation, Compensation, and Gratuities. 7,254 2 2 — — 93 10 11
— Balances irrecoverable and Claims abandoned. 2,537 7 1 — — —
59,927 18 1 303,542 6 9 714,193 5 3 159,033 2 9
Total Deficits £303,470 4 10 Total Surpluses £873,231 8 0
Net Surplus £509,761 3 2

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—[Mr. Duff Cooper.]

7.37 p.m.

Brigadier-General NATION

We are saving here a fairly large sum of money, nearly £1,000,000, to the Treasury, and there are two or three items on which I should like to ask questions of the Minister. I see under the heading of

£ s. d.
Total Surpluses 873,231 8 0
Total Deficits 363,470 4 10
Net Surplus £509,761 3 2

And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorized the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Army Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Army Services.

Vote 6, "Supplies, Road Transport, and Remounts," nearly £242,000 unspent. Are we to understand that, owing to the strength of the Army for the year being considerably less than the authorised establishment, there has been less money spent on supplies? On Vote 8, "General Stores," £132,000 has been underspent, chiefly, I understand, in respect of clothing. Is that also due to the strength of the Army in 1932 being less than the authorised establishment? There is one other item which I confess I do not understand, and, if the Minister can give an explanation, I shall be very glad. Under Vote 9, "Warlike Stores," there is an item of £152,000 in the deficiency column. Does that mean that that amount has been overspent? These are the three chief items in this statement of expenditure, and it would be for the benefit of the Committee if the Minister could kindly give us an explanation.

7.39 p.m.

Earl WINTERTON

I want also to ask a question about the Territorial Army and Reserve Forces. I am not sure, from the form in which this return is presented, whether there has been an actual surplus over the estimated expenditure under this heading. If there has been, I would venture, as a member of the Territorial Association, to put in a strong plea to the Minister, which, I think, would be supported by the Council of the Territorial Association, that that money should be given to the Territorial Forces. The Minister will be aware that for a long time the Council of the Territorial Association has been pressing for certain expenditure which the Army Council have not thought it possible to authorise. I wish to put in a sympathetic plea on their behalf.

The CHAIRMAN

That will be out of order here, as this is expenditure which is past and done with.

Earl WINTERTON

I am sorry

7.40 p.m.

The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Douglas Hacking)

I think that I can answer the question put to me by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for East Hull (Brigadier-General Nation). In fact, if he had taken the trouble to obtain a copy of the Army Appropriation Accounts, 1932, from the Vote Office he would have seen answers given to all his questions. He asked me about Vote 6, "Supplies, Road Transport and Remounts." The best thing I can do is to read the explanation given in the Notes in this particular publication. As far as A and B are concerned, that is "Provisions and Forage and Allowances in lieu," prices were lower than were estimated, and, therefore, that is the reason why we have a surplus there. As far as "Petrol and Lubricants" are concerned, there was an over-estimate of requirements partly offset by a rise in the price of petrol. With regard to F, "Appropriations-in-Aid connected with Sub-heads A to E," this publication says: Purchases by the Navy and the Air Force were less and at lower price levels than estimated. With regard to G, "Hired Road Transport," it says: The requirements of hired transport in Palestine were over-estimated. As to H, "R.A.S.C. Mechanical Transport," it was due to abnormal maintenance requirements, that we had a deficit. On J, "Subsidies for Mechanical Transport," there was a surplus because the number of vehicles enrolled under the scheme was smaller than estimated. That is the only reason that there has been any change in that particular Vote.

Brigadier-General NATION

It is on no account due to the fall in the strength of the Army for that year? That is the only assurance that I wish to obtain.

Mr. HACKING

I can give that assurance. The only reasons for the change are those which I have given to my hon. and gallant Friend. Does he want to know about other Votes?

Brigadier-General NATION

I should like an explanation of Vote 9, "Warlike stores."

Mr. HACKING

There there was a surplus of £49,201, due to delays in manufactures.

Brigadier-General NATION

What about the deficiency of £152,000?

Mr. HACKING

The explanation of the deficit of £152,009 of actual, as compared with estimated receipts, is that the details of the estimated and the actual appropriations-in-aid on the two items of Vote 9 are printed on page 19 of the Account. The deficit on Item 1 of £23,174 was due to a smaller amount of proof and experimental work being carried out for the Admiralty, and the deficit on Item 2 of £128,835 was due to the demands for issues from the Dominions and Colonies being less than the Estimate. That was the reason for the difference.

Earl WINTERTON

Would my right hon. Friend be good enough to explain how the surplus shown in the last column but one in the Schedule on the Order Paper relating to Vote 2 arose?

Mr. HACKING

Is my Noble Friend referring to this publication?

Earl WINTERTON

I am referring to Vote 2, "Territorial Army and Re serve Forces," where there is a surplus actually estimated over gross expenditure.

Mr. HACKING

What amount is that?

Earl WINTERTON

On the printed paper it says the amount is £55,429 7s. 3d.

Mr. HACKING

I regret that I have not the details here this evening, but if the Noble Lord will put a question tomorrow on the Report stage I shall be glad to reply.

Earl WINTERTON

I willingly agree to that suggestion, but I would point out that this is a very ancient opportunity of raising this question, and it is a common practice to ask questions. The Report stage does not offer the same opportunity as the present stage, because an hon.

SCHEDULE.
No. of Vote. Air Services, 1932, Votes. Deficits. Surpluses.
Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure. Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts. Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure. Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.
£ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d.
1 Pay, etc., of the Royal Air Force. — 6,974 6 5 70,117 8 4 —
2 Quartering Stores (except Technical), Supplies, and Transport. — 15,207 9 9 134,420 10 9 —
3 Technical and Warlike Stores (including Experimental and Research Services). — 16,741 2 6 14,737 17 11 —
4 Works, Buildings, and Lands — 4,718 15 5 131,183 12 9 —
5 Medical Services — — 6,140 0 2 2,661 15 9
6 Technical Training and Educational Services. — 171 3 9 4,650 4 0 —
7 Auxiliary and Reserve Forces 5,950 9 3 31 2 9 — —
8 Civil Aviation 6,313 9 1 — — 17,008 5 11
9 Meteorological Services — 528 17 0 8,526 19 4 —
Miscellaneous Effective Services. — — 10,466 10 3 413 4 8
10 Air Ministry — — 6,421 10 4 1,022 1 4
11 Half-Pay, Pensions, and other Non-effective Services. 9,555 9 0 — — 1,300 17 6
— Balances irrecoverable and Claims abandoned. 249 12 5 — — —
22,068 19 9 44,372 17 7 386,664 13 10 22,406 5 2
Total Deficits £66,441 17 4 Total Surpluses £409,070 19 0
Net Surplus £342,629 1 8
Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

Member can speak only once. However, I agree to the course suggested.

£ s. d
Total Surpluses 409,070 19 0
Total Deficits 66,441 17 4
Net Surplus £342,629 1 8

And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Air Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Air Services.

Resolved, That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—[Mr. Duff Cooper.]