HC Deb 14 December 1933 vol 284 cc787-95

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 138; Noes, 26.

Division No. 41.] AYES. [6.39 a.m.
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) Grimston, R. V. Petherick, M.
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. Peto. Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilst'n)
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nhd.) Gunston, Captain D, W. Pickering, Ernest H.
Aske, Sir Robert William Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Raikes. Henry V. A. M.
Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M. Hartington, Marquess of Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)
Baldwin-Webb, Colonel J. Holdsworth, Herbert Ramsay, T. B. w. (Western Isles)
Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury) Hore-Bellsha, Leslie Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)
Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th,C.) Horsbrugh, Florence Renwick, Major Gustav A.
Bernays, Robert Howard, Tom Forrest Rickards, George William
Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B. Howitt, Dr. Alfred B. Robinson, John Roland
Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney. N.) Ropner, Colonel L.
Borodale, Viscount Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport) Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)
Bossom, A. C. Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) Runge, Norah Cecil
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Boyce, H. Leslie Joel, Dudley J. Barnato Salmon, Sir Isidore
Broadbent, Colonel John Ker, J. Campbell Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) Scone, Lord
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Lamb, Sir Joseph Oulnton Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Burghley, Lord Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.) Smith, Sir J. Walker- (Barrow-In-F.)
Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie Leckie, J. A. Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.
Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) Leech, Dr. J. W. Spencer, Captain Richard A.
Caporn, Arthur Cecil Leighton, Major B. E. P. Storey. Samuel
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Llewellin, Major John J. Stourton. Hon. John J.
Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.) Strauss, Edward A.
Christie, James Archibald Loder, Captain J. de Vere Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-
Column, N. C. D, MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart
Cooke, Douglas MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Sutcliffe, Harold
Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) McKeag, William Tate, Mavis Constance
Crookshank. Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) McKie, John Hamilton Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)
Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard Macmillan, Maurice Harold Thompson. Luke
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot Thorp, Linton Theodore
Dickie, John P. Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Tichfield. Major the Marquess of
Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.) Marsden, Commander Arthur Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)
Eastwood, John Francis Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John Touche. Gordon Cosmo
Edmondson, Major A. J. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Tree, Ronald
Elmley, Viscount Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Emrys-Evans, P. V. Moison, A. Hugh Elsdale Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Entwistle, Cyril Fu'lard Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Essenhigh, Reginald Clare Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.) Weymouth, Viscount
Fleming, Edward Lascelles Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Whyte, Jardine Bell
Fraser, Captain Ian Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J. Williams. Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
Fremantle, Sir Francis Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. Wills, Wilfrid D.
Gluckstein, Louis Halle Nicholson, Godlrey (Morpeth) Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)
Goff, Sir Park Nunn, William Womersley, Walter James
Goldie, Noel B. O'Donovan. Dr. William James
Goodman, Colonel Albert W. Palmer, Francis Noel TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Graves, Marjorie Perkins, Walter R. D. Sir Frederick Thomson and Sir George Penny.
NOES.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) Maxton, James
Attlee, Clement Richard Edwards, Charles Nathan, Major H. L.
Banfield, John William Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) Tinker, John Joseph
Batey, Joseph Grundy. Thomas W. Williams. Edward John (Ogmore)
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)
Buchanan, George Logan, David Gilbert Wilmot, John
Cape, Thomas McEntee, Valentine L.
Cocks, Frederick Seymour McGovern, John TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Cripps, Sir Stafford Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Mr. John and Mr. Groves.
Daggar, George Mainwaring, William Henry

6.48 a.m.

Major NATHAN

We all appreciate the readiness and the courtesy with which the Financial Secretary has dealt with the various Amendments and Clauses which have been discussed. But he has a certain right to feel aggrieved that he has been left unsupported in questions of great constitutional importance and great legal perplexity. He was left without the support of either of the Law officers of the Crown. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) made a formidable attack upon the provisions of Clause 3, and in the course of a speech which was none too long for the subject—

The CHAIRMAN

This is Clause 4.

Major NATHAN

I am coming to Clause 4 by way, if I may, of Clause 3.

The CHAIRMAN

The hon. and gallant Member will be good enough to come to Clause 4 or else resume his seat.

Mr. COCKS

Is it not in Order for an hon. Member to speak on Clause 4 and mention Clause 3?

Major NATHAN

I shall put my point in a slightly different form. I have no desire to infringe any rules of procedure, and in order that I shall not do so I will put my argument in a somewhat different form. I will say that Clause 4 gives authority to the Treasury to make advances, to make loans to the Government of Newfoundland in respect of those matters provided for in Clause 3, namely, that the Treasury shall give a guarantee.

The CHAIRMAN

The hon. and gallant Member is not entitled to read Clause 3.

Major NATHAN

I shall follow the suggestion you are good enough to make, but I think I shall be able to satisfy the Committee that that is the provision of this Clause. I do not wish to make myself so unnecessarily tedious to the House as to read Clause 3 in its entirety.

The CHAIRMAN

I must really warn the hon. Member seriously not to trifle with the Chair. I have told him that he must discuss Clause 4 and not Clause 3, and I reminded him just now that he was mistaken in saying that under Clause 4 the Treasury had power to make advances under Clause 3. If he reads the Clause he will find he is wrong.

Major NATHAN

If you will allow me to say so, with the greatest respect, you profoundly misunderstood me if you have taken the view that I have wished in any way to trifle with the Chair. That has always been very far from my mind. Although a long time has passed in the Debate and there have been friendly exchanges, I am endeavouring to address a serious argument to the House. Clause 4 (1) provides that the Treasury may issue out of the Consolidated Fund by way of temporary advance to the Government of Newfoundland any sum which that Government has power to borrow temporarily under Sub-section (4) of Section 2 of the Loan Act. I think you will appreciate, since I have read that Subsection to Clause 4, that to the extent at all events to which temporary advances are made to the Government of Newfoundland of the money which that Government has power to borrow temporarily under the provisions of Section 2 (4) of the Loan Act, it covers, though in a different form and for a temporary purpose instead of a permanent purpose, part of the subject matter of Clause 3. Of that I entertain no doubt. Now I look at what the scheme of Section 2 of the Loan Act is in order to understand what the Newfoundland Government may borrow.

I do not propose to take the Sub-sections in their entirety. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] Because I am anxious that you, Sir, should feel, as is the fact, that I have no desire to occupy the House longer than is necessary to explain the point. Section 2 provides that stock may be issued, and that the holders of the deferred securities are to receive current amounts of this stock, and paragraph (6) that certain securities are to receive of this stock such a denomination as the Governor may think fit. Paragraph (c) provides, in the first place, for money to be raised by the Newfoundland Government sufficient to discharge any of the obligations of Newfoundland other than those represented by the deferred securities guaranteed by the Governor in Council with the concurrence of the Treasury. The point I desire an opportunity to address to the House is this. What are the obligations referred to in paragraph (c) for the discharge of which money may be raised by the Newfoundland Government by way of loan? In another form my question is, what are the obligations for which the British Government are to put the Newfoundland Government in funds? "Obligations" is by far the widest term that can be used for any engagement of a financial character. It is far wider than the term "securities" used in Section 1 of the Loan Act. It cannot be merely the securities mentioned in the First Schedule to the Loan Act. Therefore, it seems to me that it must mean something far different.

I look to the report of the Royal Commission for guidance. Subsection (1) of Clause 2 specifically provides that stock may be issued on the credit of Newfoundland by the Governor in Council for the express purpose of raising the money referred to in paragraph (c). I hope I have made good the point which I submitted seriously and which you apparently mistakenly thought that I did not submit with the seriousness I intended. What are these obligations? It is very difficult to get any guidance from the report of the Royal Commission. The public debt referred to in paragraph 187 on page 70 is very difficult to indentify with the stocks set out in the First Schedule to the Loan. Act.

I do not believe that they can be identified, nor do I believe that a reference to Appendices F or G in the Report will give any assistance in identifying the stocks set out in the First Schedule to the Loan Act. The relevance of it is that the Treasury is asking to be given leave to provide the necessary money to discharge these various cash obligations as a preliminary to the issue of stock. I think we ought to know before approving of this Clause what is the extent of the authority which it has given to the Treasury to dispense in cash by way of a loan to Newfoundland.

So much for the public debts, but there are other obligations. I have not quoted them all, but let me take one as an example. It is a kind of an obligation upon which the Treasury may be called upon to finance the Newfoundland Government. If the hon. Gentleman will refer to paragraph 399 on page 145 of the Report, he will find a reference to the International Power and Paper Company of Newfoundland, Ltd., which "has had a chequered history." The Report says in the following paragraph, that the 'B' stock was similarly guaranteed by the Newfoundland Government and was similarly secured by a trust deed giving the trustees second fixed and floating charges. The "A" stock was guaranteed by the United Kingdom Treasury under the Trade Facilities Act, 1921. The Company has passed through many vicissitudes, which are set out in this Report, and on page 148 it is shown that part of this loan capital £2,000,000 is in 5½ per cent. "B" debenture stock guaranteed by the Newfoundland Government. At any time an application may arise under that debenture. Is the British Treasury likely to be called upon to make any payment in cash to the holders of a debenture? I find on page 152, paragraph 423: The fact that the Newfoundland Government has guaranteed £2,000,000 worth of Stock makes it of special importance that all possible measures should be taken to facilitate the restoration of normal conditions at Corner Brook. The evidence submitted to us showed that there was no immediate danger of the Government being called upon to implement its guarantee; but prospects for the future must depend largely on world conditions. I want also to know whether the Treasury have formed any opinion whether there is a liability under the guarantee of this £2,000,000 worth of debentures, and also whether there are other obligations of the Newfoundland Government of a like nature, and if so, of what kind are they and what are their dates for maturing? The hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) referring to the various loans on page 70 of the Report, pointed out that the Prosperity Loan and the Bank and Government Loans are repayable at any time. I should like to know whether the Treasury has any information as to whether, and if so when, those liabilities will mature. I feel that when authority is sought by the Treasury to issue out of the Consolidated Fund sums of money unspecified and unlimited in amount, the House of Commons is entitled to know before it parts with them exactly what the position is.

Mr. HORE-BELISHA

The matters to which the hon. Member refers are relevant to Clause 4 and are fully explained in the White Paper. In regard to the specially secured loans, details are also given in the White Paper. They are the Prosperity Loan, the Bank and Government Loans, and the 4 per cent. sterling loan.

Mr. T. WILLIAMS rose

Captain MARGESSON rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Division No. 42.] AYES. [7.10 a.m.
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) Grimston, R. V. Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilst'n)
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. Pickering, Ernest H.
Allen, Lt.-Col. J.Sandeman (B'k'nh'd) Gunston, Captain D. W. Raikes, Henry V. A. M.
Aske, Sir Robert William Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)
Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M. Hartington, Marquess of Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)
Baldwin-Webb, Colonel J. Holdsworth, Herbert Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)
Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Renwick, Major Gustav A.
Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th,C.) Horsbrugh, Florence Rickards, George William
Bernays, Robert Howard, Tom Forrest Robinson, John Roland
Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B. Howitt, Dr. Alfred B. Ropner, Colonel L.
Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)
Borodale, Viscount Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport) Runge, Narah Cecil
Bossom, A. C. Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. James, Wing. Com. A. W. H. Salmon, Sir Isidore
Boyce, H. Leslie Joel, Dudley J. Barnato Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart
Broadbent, Colonel John Ker, J. Campbell Scone, Lord
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton Smith, Sir J. Walker- (Barrow-In-F.)
Burghley, Lord Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.) Spencer, Captain Richard A.
Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie Leckie, J. A. Storey, Samuel
Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) Leech, Dr. J. W. Stourton, Hon. John J.
Caporn, Arthur Cecil Leighton, Major B. E. P. Strauss, Edward A.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Llewellin, Major John J. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-
Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Lockwood, John C (Hackney, C.) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart
Christie, James Archibald Loder, Captain J. de Vera Sutcliffe, Harold
Colman, N. C. D. Mac Andrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) Tate, Mavis Constance
Cooke, Douglas MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Thomas, Jamas P. L. (Hereford)
Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) McKeag, William Thompson, Luke
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) McKie, John Hamilton Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles
Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard Macmillan, Maurice Harold Thorp, Linton Theodore
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Dickie, John P. Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)
Duncan. James A. L. (Kensington, N.) Marsden, Commander Arthur Touche, Gordon Cosmo
Eastwood, John Francis Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John Tree, Ronald
Edmondson, Major A. J. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Elmley, Viscount Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k) Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Emrys-Evans, P. V. Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Entwistle, Cyril Fullard Morris, John Patrick (Sallord, N.) Weymouth, Viscount
Essenhigh, Reginald Clare Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Whyte, Jardine Bell
Fleming, Edward Lascelles Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J. Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
Fraser, Captain Ian Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. Wills, Wilfrid D.
Fremantle, Sir Francis Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth) Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)
Gluckstein, Louis Halle Nunn, William Womersley, Walter James
Goff, Sir Park O'Donovan, Dr. William James
Goldie, Noel B. Palmer. Francis Noel TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Goodman, Colonel Albert W. Perkins, Walter R. D. Sir George Penny and Commander Southby.
Graves, Marjorie Petherick, M.
NOES.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) Edwards, Charles Maxton, James.
Attlee, Clement Richard Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) Nathan, Major H. L.
Banfield, John William Grundy, Thomas W. Tinker, John Joseph
Batey, Joseph Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)
Buchanan, George Logan, David Gilbert Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)
Cape, Thomas McEntee, Valentine L.
Cripps, Sir Stafford McGovern, John TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Daggar, George Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Mr. John and Mr. Groves.
Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) Mainwaring, William Henry

Question put accordingly, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 137; Noes, 23.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 138; Noes, 24.

Caporn, Arthur Cecil Joel, Dudley J. Barnato Renwick, Major Gustav A.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Ker, J. Campbell Rickards, George William
Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) Robinson. John Roland
Christie, James Archibald Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton Ropner, Colonel L.
Colman, N. C. D. Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.) Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)
Cooke, Douglas Leckie, J. A. Runge, Norah Cecil
Crookshank. Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) Leech, Dr. J. w. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) Leighton, Major B. E. P. Salmon, Sir Isidore
Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard Llewellin, Major John J. Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Lockwood. John C. (Hackney, C.) Scone, Lord
Dickie, John p. Lodar, Captain J. de Vere Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Both well)
Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.) MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) Smith, Sir J. Walker- (Barrow-In-F.)
Eastwood, John Francis MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Spencer. Captain Richard A.
Edmondson, Major A. J. McKeag, William Storey, Samuel
Elmley, Viscount McKie, John Hamilton Stourton, Hon. John J.
Emrys-Evans, P. V. Macmillan, Maurice Harold Strauss, Edward A.
Entwistle, Cyril Fullard Mallalieu. Edward Lancelot Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-
Essenhigh, Reginald Clare Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart
Fleming, Edward Lascelles Marsden. Commander Arthur Sutcliffe, Harold
Fraser, Captain Ian Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John Tate, Mavis Constance
Fremantle, Sir Francis Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Thomas. James P. L. (Hereford)
Gluckstein. Louis Halle Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k) Thompson, Luke
Goff, Sir Park Moison, A. Hugh Elsdale Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles
Goldie, Noel B. Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres Thorp. Linton Theodore
Goodman, Colonel Albert W. Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Graves, Marjorie Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)
Grimston, R. V. Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J. Touche, Gordon Cosmo
Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. Tree, Ronald
Gunston, Captain D. W. Nicholson. Godlrey (Morpeth) Ward. Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Nunn, William Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Hartington, Marquess of O'Donovan. Dr. William James Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Holdsworth. Herbert Palmer. Francis Noel Weymouth, Viscount
Hore-Belisha, Leslie Perkins, Walter R. D. Whyte. Jardine Bell
Horsbrugh, Florence Petherick, M. Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
Howard, Tom Forrest Peto. Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston) Wills. Wilfrid D.
Howitt, Dr. Alfred B. Pickering, Ernest H. Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)
Hudson, Capt. A. u. M. (Hackney.N.) Raikes. Henry V. A. M. Womersley, Walter James
Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport) Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)
Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. Raid, James S. C. (Stirling) Sir George Penny and Commander Southby.
NOES.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) Mainwaring, William Henry
Attlee, Clement Richard Edwards, Charles Maxton, James
Banfield, John William Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) Nathan, Major H. L.
Batey. Joseph Grundy, Thomas W. Tinker, John Joseph
Bevan, Aneurln (Ebbw Vale) Hall. George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)
Buchanan, George Logan, David Gilbert Williams. Thomas (York, Don Valley)
Cape, Thomas McEntee. Valentine L.
Cripps, Sir Stafford McGovern, John TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Daggar, George Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Mr. John and Mr. Groves.