HC Deb 20 October 1932 vol 269 cc291-5
1. Mr. LUNN

asked the Minister of Labour what are the total numbers of transitional cases under the Unemployment Insurance Acts that have been con-

Determinations by Public Assistance Authorities in Great Britain on applications for Transitional Payments.
12th November, 1931–3rd September, 1932.
Period. Total number of applicants. Payment allow[...]d at maximum benefit rates. Payment. allowed at lower rates. Needs of applicants held not to justify payment.
12th November, 1931–23rd January, 1932* 2,198,739 1,115,404 764.223 319,112
25th January, 1932–3rd September, 1932:—
Initial applications 936,757 475,536 289,726 171,495
Renewals and revisions 5,683,189 3,332,542 2,149,358 201,289
8,818,685 4,923,482 3,203,307 691,896
*The figures for this period include renewals and revisions as well as initial applications. Separate figures for initial applications are not available.
2. Captain PETER MACDONALD

asked the Minister of Labour what has been the approximate saving through the operation of the means test during the current financial year, after making due allowance for the difference in the number of unemployed during this period and during the similar period in 1931?

Sir H. BETTERTON

The saving through the operation of the needs test during the current financial year to date is estimated to have been approximately£28,000,000.

Mr. T. WILLIAMS

Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any idea how much sidered by public assistance committees in the country; what number have had no reduction in benefit; What number have had a partial reduction; and what number have lost the whole of their benefit?

The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Henry Betterton)

As the reply includes a table of figures, I will, if I may, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Mr. LUNN

Have the Government estimated how many more millions will be added to the local rates to maintain the people who have been deprived of their transitional benefit?

Sir H. BETTERTON

I do not think that that question arises out of the question on the Paper.

Following is the statement:

extra money has been paid in rates where people have been deprived of benefit owing to the means test?

Sir H. BETTERTON

That question does not arise out of the Question on the Paper. I could not answer it.

Mr. BATEY

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the extra cost of the extra machinery of the public assistance committees?

Sir H. BETTERTON

That question, again, the hon. Gentleman must put down. It is a question as to details, and it is not on the Paper. I think it is very much the question asked by the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams).

Mr. TINKER

Is the £8,000,000 a clear saving, apart from all the other expense incurred in administration?

Sir H. BETTERTON

I am not quite sure about that, but I think not. In that case again, if the hon. Member will put the question down, I will give him the details.

Mr. WALLHEAD

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House how much this saving to the Unemployment Insurance Fund has cost in Poor Law relief?

Mr. SPEAKER

This information cannot be given without notice.

4. Mr. LECKIE

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the dissatisfaction which exists with regard to the administration of the means test, he will consider the issue of fresh regulations to meet some of the criticisms made and so make it easier for public assistance committees to administer the Act pending the report of the Commission on Unemployment?

7. Mr. MANDER

asked the Minister of Labour if he will consider the desirability of transferring the administration of the means test from public assistance committees to specially appointed commissioners?

8. Mr. SUMMERSBY

asked the Minister of Labour if he will take powers to prevent public assistance committees taking into account disability pensions when assessing means with a view to granting transitional benefit?

17. Mr. GRAHAM WHITE

asked the Minister of Labour if it is his intention to make a statement with regard to the administration of the means test; and, if so, on what occasion?

Sir H. BETTERTON

As announced by the Prime Minister last night, a statement on the subject will be made at an early date.

9. Mr. LAWSON

asked the Minister of Labour how many commissioners are to be sent to Durham to administer transitional payments; when the commissioners will commence their duties; what their salaries will be; and whether he is in a position to state the name or names of such commissioners?

Sir H. BETTERTON

I am not yet in a position to make a statement on any of the points mentioned by the hon. Member.

Mr. LAWSON

In view of the statement that commissioners are to be appointed, may I ask when I may repeat this question?

Sir H. BETTERTON

I will communicate with the hon. Gentleman and let him know. I think it will probably be three or four weeks before I can answer the question on the Paper, but I will communicate with him.

Mr. LAWSON

May I ask this question? Will the commissioners be the sole judges in interpreting the transitional rules, or will they have same regulations for their guidance?

Sir H. BETTERTON

These questions were asked and answered in connection with a Private Notice Question on the day on which the House reassembled. If the hon. Member will look at the answers, he will see that I answered his question.

Mr. SPEAKER

As a matter of fact, these questions do not arise out of the question on the Paper; they are outside the question on the Paper.

28. Mr. LUNN

asked the Minister of Health what communications his Department has received from public assistance committees urging that the Government should provide from the national Exchequer the amount of the increased poor rate, as a result of the administration of the means test; and whether all local authorities who have had to increase the rates as a result of their administration and the consequent increase in out-relief will have such increased amount paid to them from the Exchequer?

The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Hilton Young)

I have not received any communications from public assistance committees which attribute an increase in the poor rate to the administration of the needs test, and I would remind the hon. Member that it is impossible for any extra charge to fall on the rates as a result of this test. The second part of the question does not, therefore, arise.

Mr. LUNN

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that in many towns and cities the rates have been increased by some thousands of pounds a week because of the increased Poor Law relief that has to be given owing to the operation of the means test?

Sir H. YOUNG

There is much misconception on the subject. As a matter of fact, the administration of the means test cannot increase Poor Law Relief, for, just as much as it disqualifies a man from receiving benefit, so it disqualifies him from receiving Poor Law relief.

Mr. LUNN

Is it not more far reaching than that in the effect that it is having, not only on the individual, but on the whole family?

Mr. LAWSON

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that public assistance committees are actually sending in resolutions of protest, because they say that in their experience people are being refused benefit and thus being cast on the Poor Law?

Sir H. YOUNG

There are representations, though not received by me, relating to other aspects of the administration of transitional payments.

Mr. LAWSON

Has not the right hon. Gentleman seen statements by the public assistance committees of Newcastle and York? In Newcastle, they say they have increased their estimates by £60,000, mainly due to the operation of the means test?

Sir H. YOUNG

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it is a misconception to attribute any increase in Poor Law relief to the operation of the means test. It is impossible that it should be so, because just in so far as it disqualifies an applicant from receiving transitional payment, so it disqualifies him from receiving Poor Law relief.

Mr. BUCHANAN

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that a charge arises on the Poor Law authorities very often through their having to meet additional outlays in respects other than the direct payment of outdoor relief? I should also like to ask if he has received any representations on the question of anomalies which fall solely on the Poor Law authority?

Sir H. YOUNG

With regard to anomalies, that is a different question. Perhaps I might have notice of it.