GREY SEALS PROTECTION BILL [Lords]. (Hansard, 11 March 1932)

§ Sir J. GILMOUR
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time".
The House will recollect that the matter dealt with in this Bill has been before Parliament on several occasions. It deals with the protection of the grey seal. Hitherto, the Bill for that purpose has always been put in the Expiring Laws (Continuance) Bill, but, when the matter was discussed in 1929, some conflicting views were expressed on the subject, and it was then felt that it would be desirable to deal further with the matter by legislation. This Bill gives power, under very careful restrictions and inspection by either the Secretary of State for Scotland or the Minister of Agriculture in England, to grant licences for the control at certain places or during certain parts of the year of the increase of these seals. In the main, the grey seal does no damage to fisheries, but, if the balance of Nature should become unduly upset, the grey seal, which naturally lives on fish, might become a danger and cause trouble in certain fishing areas. For that reason we ask for a flexible instrument, which will, of course, only be used with the very greatest care, and I may add that the destruction of any of these animals, if such destruction is determined upon, will be carried out under very careful supervision and with due regard to the most humane methods.

§ Sir S. CRIPPS
I think we ought to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on having been able, in one afternoon, to control the circulation of musk rats and grey seals, while his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot control the currency.

§ Mr. COCKS
May I ask whether, if we pass this Measure, it will mean that the Bill which has delighted the midnight hours of this House on so many past occasions will no longer come before us?

§ Sir J. GILMOUR
Yes.

§ Mr. COCKS
The hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams), who, I am sorry to say, has now gone, has spent so many hours on this subject that it seems almost cruel to him that we should pass such a Bill in his absence.

§ Sir BASIL PETO
Surely, when a Bill for the protection of grey seals is before the House, we should have some explanation as to why the Measure is necessary. [HON. MEMBERS: "We have had it; you were not here."] It must have been of the very briefest kind, and it does not seem to me that it could possibly have been adequate. I do not know whether it is apparent to the House that the purpose of this Bill for the protection of grey seals is, as a matter of fact, to provide that the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Agriculture in England may order their complete destruction. The Bill states, at the beginning of Clause 1, that there shall be an annual close season for grey seals, but the proviso to the Clause goes on to say that at any time the Secretary of State for Scotland or the Minister of Agriculture in England may by Order, either generally or with respect to any area described in the Order, direct that there shall be no close season during the 12 months next following. It is true that these Orders are supposed to come before Parliament in the usual way, but that will certainly not give any protection to grey seals. We all know what Orders which are laid on the Table of the House for a period of not less than 48 days really mean, and what amount of protection they afford.
I have not put down a Motion for the rejection of this Bill, although I am strongly opposed to it, but I look with some suspicion on the conjunction of affairs which now brings the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir R. Hamilton), who is the real parent of the Bill, into close association with the Secretary of State for Scotland, who represents Caithness. I look upon it as a sort of unholy alliance against these interesting and rare animals. Seeing that 2172 so large a proportion of the Members of the present House of Commons are new Members, I think the House ought to know something about the origin of this Bill. It appears that the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland, moved by some misguided constituents who sent him to this House, and who believed that they bad some grievance against the grey seal—although, so far as I am aware, there are no salmon fisheries in Orkney and Shetland—got the then Government to adopt this Bill and make it a Government Measure. We heard the benevolent Secretary of State for Scotland assure us that he would not make these Orders unless he was convinced that it was seriously necessary for the protection of our fisheries. In all the Debates we have had on the subject we have never had a particle of valid evidence that would hold water that the grey seal was a danger to our salmon fisheries. When the Bill was passed for the protection of these animals, they were nearly extinct, and we ought to ask what is the evidence of their having multiplied to such an extent as to become a danger.
It is a very large order to ask the House to place this power in the hands of these two Government Departments. I object entirely to this method of legislation. The House is asked to pretend, in Clause 1, that it is giving them protection and, at the same time, it hands over the whole of its power to these two Ministers to order these breeding grounds to be raided and these animals to be killed in any numbers. There is no provision that even a small remnant may be allowed to remain. They can be extinguished entirely. Why is this National Government so anxious to take power to destry one of the most interesting animals that frequent these shores? I cannot see, on the merits of the question, any ground for their having adopted this Bill. I understand why the late Government adopted it. There was a very uncertain alliance between them and the Liberal party, and a distinguished Member of that party, the Member for Orkney and Shetlands (Sir W. Hamilton), moved by his constituents, adopted this view. We were not surprised that, as a means of getting a little more support from the hon. Gentleman and his friends, the Government should benevolently adopt his Bill. The Secretary of State 2173 for Scotland represents a neighbouring constituency. The hon. Gentleman will always have his ear and at any moment he can go to him and say, "Issue an order, please, for the abolition of the close time for the next 12 months." It will give my constituents a nice little well-paid job, paid by the day or by the hour, or perhaps by the number of animals that they exterminate. It is clear that the movement for extermination came from Orkney and now that the hon. Gentleman is on the front bench the grey seal will not have a ghost of a chance.
Why do the National Government want this Bill? Is this a part of any great national policy? [Interruption.] An hon. Member suggests that it is to find employment for tithe hon. Gentleman's constituents. That might be a, reason, certainly. It is suggested that the National Government should continue until it has fulfilled its great national purpose. All that sounds very nice, but why a Bill to exterminate grey seals under the pretence that you are going to protect them? If you are going to protect them, why do you want to alter the law? What evidence have you that there is any necessity whatever for it? It was useless to put down a Motion for rejection, because we have to accept what the National Government describes as a national purpose, even if it is the destruction of these animals, but, when the Bill gets into Committee, I shall endeavour to ensure that there shall be at least one little island on the Outer Hebrides, not inhabited by any human being, which shall be free from these 2174 forays and raids until some future Minister can show that there are such numbers of these grey seals that our fisheries are really in danger. I hope I shall be able to soften the Minister's heart, although he does not look at all amenable to argument. I shall ask him to leave one little spot where these animals may remain free from the edicts of the Secretary of State for Scotland and free from the Orders that may be given by the Minister of Agriculture, so that at any rate there may be a small remnant left of these animals, and that we may not be decreeing this afternoon their entire and utter extermination, although we are told that we are passing a Bill for their preservation.