§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill".
§ Mr. BUCHANAN
I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again".
356 I do so in order to ask the Minister how far he intends to proceed and also to ask the Patronage Secretary whether, as announced earlier to-day, it is intended to take the Hire Purchase (Scotland) Bill to-night.
§ The CHAIRMAN
I am prepared to allow the hon. Member to move to report Progress, but not to allow a discussion on it. Under the Standing Order, I can put the Question without discussion.
§ Mr. MAXTON
Under the Standing Order, you can permit any hon. Member who is moving to report Progress to state the reasons why his Motion should be granted. My memory for procedure may be defective, but I have taken part in and listened to a good many discussions on the Motion to report Progress.
§ The CHAIRMAN
That is so, but I did not think it necessary to have any discussion. If the hon. Member has a special point to raise, he can put it.
§ Mr. BUCHANAN
I have two points to raise. The first point is that we have made fairly reasonable progress on a Bill which is very technical, very detailed, and very involved. In all my years in this House I do not remember any Bill so technical and so important which was so difficult to follow. I appeal to the Minister to be lenient towards the Opposition. The Opposition are comparatively few and the burden upon them is correspondingly great. Is it not possible to adjourn now and to take the rest of the Bill on another day? [Hon. Members: "No."] We are trying to be reasonable with the Minister. We have not been at all unreasonable, and he knows it. The Patronage Secretary knows that too, and he has had more Parliamentary experience than the hon. Members who interrupt me. I would ask him whether it is intended still to go on with the Scottish Bill.
Sir H. YOUNG
It is true that we are making very good progress now, but we have only just begun to make it, and it would be a pity to stop now. We all need some encouragement at this time of night. We have now overcome all the principal technical difficulties and all the principal matters of contentious interest in the Bill. There are very few matters of equal interest and contention left to be discussed. In those circum- 357 stances the Committee would feel that it would be a pity to spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Captain Margesson)
In reply to the question of the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), I can give him an assurance that, as we have reached a late hour and as it will probably be some time longer before we conclude the discussion, it is not the intention of the Government to ask the House to take the Hire Purchase (Scotland) Bill.
§ Mr. MAXTON
An hon. Member behind me appears to share the illusion of other Members of the Committee that my colleagues and I are responsible for them being detained at this unusual hour. He is quite wrong in that. At a normal hour of the day and in his normal mood he would admit at once that I did everything which it was possible for a private Member to do to get the Government to allocate more time to the discussion of this Bill. There has been no speech delivered by any Member of the party on this bench which could fairly be described as an obstructive speech. [Interruption.] I know perfectly well how hon. Members feel, because I have had exactly the same feeling when I was listening to the tariff Debates. I felt that those people were only talking because they wanted to hear themselves talk and that there was really nothing worth discussing. I asked myself, "Why do they go on day after day?"
§ Mr. MAXTON
The hon. and gallant Member makes a very important point. If there are six hundred of them, they can get away with a lot, but five people cannot get away with much. The point has been made already by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) that, when a small group has to do the critical opposition to an involved and technical Bill of this description, it naturally follows that each one has to go on repeating himself because he genuinely wants to do his job. It is grossly unfair that five hundred people should say: "We are not interested to do anything in this Bill except what the Government tell us to do, and therefore you five, six, eight or twenty must conduct your job at an un- 358 earthly hour of the night. "We are ready to work an extended Session so as to give time for adequate discussion. We are ready to keep our mouths shut, as we have kept them shut on a number of topics that have been discussed in this House. [Interruption.] I can go through the columns of the OFFICIAL REPORT and show that in a number of discussions not one member of this party intervened. We are interested in this Bill, and I appeal to the Patronage Secretary. There are a number who have come here not to take part in a responsible discussion [Interruption]. I just have that impression from the interruptions of hon. Members. There is one Member who has just interrupted. I certainly have not heard his voice on this Bill and the people of Battersea would be glad to hear his voice on this occasion. He ought to be very careful that in a matter that has a vital effect on the poor sections of the community whom he represents, and among whom we live, his contributions are not of an obstructive nature but of an intelligent nature.
§ Commander MARSDEN
The hon. Gentleman does not live among the poor section of Battersea, but he lives an one of the best flats there.
§ Mr. MAXTON
I did not intend to suggest that I lived in a slum in Batter-sea. Thank God I have never had to live in a slum, but I have never been ashamed of living among the common people and the hon. Member knows the flat in which I live. I know that, because in has climbed up the stairs many times, to shove his literature through the door, and he knows when he has climbed up to our flat that he is then nearer to-heaven than he is ever likely to be. [Interruption.] An hon. Member asks what I am talking about. I am talking about the motion to report Progress in order that the rest of this Bill may be discussed at a time when the House is in a proper frame of mind to discuss it in a reasonable way. If my speech has not given any arguments in favour of that course being followed, then the interruptions of hon. Members produce substantial evidence that this Committee is not in a mood to examine the details of this Bill in the calm, critical way that constituents expected that their Members would apply to the work of the House when they elected them. I do not know 359 —it is not my problem—whether the Patronage Secretary has extra time for the discussion of this matter, but I can assure him that so far as this bench is concerned we are ready to wait until the Ministers have gone to Ottawa, and we are prepared to work the normal Parliamentary Session which lasts until the middle of August. That will give him an extra month, and we ask for an extra day to complete the Committee stage of this Bill, which we regard, probably foolishly—we may have a wrong perspective; we may be cranks—as of great importance. The Minister says that he has made substantial progress and
|Division No. 244.]||AYES.||[1.59 a.m.|
|Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)||Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)||McEntee, Valentine L.|
|Buchanan, George||Hirst, George Henry||McGovern, John|
|Cape, Thomas||Jenkins, Sir William||Maxton, James|
|Cocks, Frederick Seymour||Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)||Milner, Major James|
|Daggar, George||Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)||Price, Gabriel|
|Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)||Kirkwood, David||Tinker, John Joseph|
|Edwards, Charles||Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George||Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. David|
|Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur||Lawson, John James|
|Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)||Leonard, William||TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—|
|Grundy, Thomas W.||Logan, David Gilbert||Mr. Duncan Graham and Mr. John.|
|Hall, F. (Cork, W. R., Normanton)||Lunn, William|
|Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel||Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)||Howard, Tom Forrest|
|Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)||Dawson, Sir Philip||Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.|
|Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.||Donner, P. W.||Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)|
|Albery, Irving James||Drewe, Cedric||Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg)|
|Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nhd.)||Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel||Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)|
|Anstruther-Gray, W. J.||Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)||James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.|
|Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)||Eastwood, John Francis||Jamieson, Douglas|
|Atholl, Duchess of||Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E.||Janner, Barnett|
|Bailey, Eric Alfred George||Elliston, Captain George Sampson||Jesson, Major Thomas E.|
|Baldwin-Webb, Colonel J.||Emmott, Charles E. G. C.||Joel, Dudley J. Barnato|
|Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)||Emrys-Evans, P. V.||Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)|
|Balniel, Lord||Entwistle, Cyril Fullard||Ker, J. Campbell|
|Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell||Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)||Kerr, Hamilton W.|
|Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey||Erskine-Boist, Capt. C. C. (Bik'pool)||Kirkpatrick, William M.|
|Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury)||Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)||Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R.|
|Beaumont, Hn. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.)||Everard, W. Lindsay||Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton|
|Bird, Ernest Roy (Yorks., Skipton)||Foot, Dingle (Dundee)||Latham, Sir Herbert Paul|
|Blindell, James||Ford, Sir Patrick J.||Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)|
|Bossom, A. C.||Fox, Sir Gifford||Lennox-Boyd, A. T.|
|Boulton, W. W.||Fraser, Captain Ian||Levy, Thomas|
|Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton||Fremantle, Sir Francis||Lindsay, Noel Ker|
|Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.||Gledhill, Gilbert||Llewellin, Major John J.|
|Braithwaite, Maj. A. N. (Yorks, E.R.)||Gluckstein, Louis Halle||Loder, Captain J. de Vere|
|Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)||Goff, Sir Park||Mabane, William|
|Brocklebank, C. E. R.||Greene, William P. C.||MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G.(Partick)|
|Brown, Ernest (Leith)||Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)||MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)|
|Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.||Gunston, Captain D. W.||McCorquodale, M. S.|
|Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie||Guy, J. C. Morrison||McEwen, Captain J. H. F.|
|Burnett, John George||Hales, Harold K.||McKie, John Hamilton|
|Caporn, Arthur Cecil||Hall, Capt. W. D'Arcy (Brecon)||Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton|
|Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)||Hanley, Dennis A.||McLean, Major Alan|
|Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)||Harbord, Arthur||Macmillan, Maurice Harold|
|Chalmers, John Rutherford||Hartington, Marquess of||Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot|
|Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton-le-Spring)||Hartland, George A.||Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.|
|Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric||Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)||Margesson, Capt. Henry David R.|
|Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.||Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.||Marsden, Commander Arthur|
|Conant, R. J. E.||Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.||Martin, Thomas B.|
|Copeland, Ida||Holdsworth, Herbert||Meller, Richard James|
|Cranborne, Viscount||Hope, Capt. Arthur O. J. (Aston)||Merriman, Sir F. Boyd|
|Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)||Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge)||Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)|
|Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard||Hornby, Frank||Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)|
|Curry, A. C.||Horsbrugh, Florence||Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale|
§ that he has got all the essential parts of the Bill, and he thinks it will only be a matter of half-an-hour or so to get the rest of it. That may be so, but there are important parts of the Bill still to be discussed, and I ask him and I ask the Patronage Secretary, having regard to the mood of his own party, and having regard to the fact that there are many employés of the House who have to remain in attendance while we are here, to agree to this proposal.
§ Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 29; Noes, 200.
|Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.||Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)||Stevenson, James|
|Moreing, Adrian C.||Ratcliffe, Arthur||Storey, Samuel|
|Morgan, Robert H.||Rathbone, Eleanor||Stourton, Hon. John J.|
|Muirhead, Major A. J.||Rea, Walter Russell||Strickland, Captain W. F.|
|Munro, Patrick||Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)||Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)|
|Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.||Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham||Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F.|
|Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)||Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)||Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart|
|Normand, Wilfrid Guild||Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)||Sutcliffe, Harold|
|North, Captain Edward T.||Ross, Ronald D.||Tate, Mavis Constance|
|O'Connor, Terence James||Runge, Norah Cecil||Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)|
|O'Donovan, Dr. William James||Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy)||Thornton, Sir Frederick Charles|
|O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh||Rutherford, Sir John Hugo||Thorp, Linton Theodore|
|Ormiston, Thomas||Salmon, Major Isidore||Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)|
|Palmer, Francis Noel||Salt, Edward W.||Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)|
|Patrick, Colin M.||Savery, Samuel Servington||Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)|
|Pearson, William G.||Scone, Lord||Wells, Sydney Richard|
|Penny, Sir George||Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.||Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)|
|Perkins, Walter R. D.||Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)||Wills, Wilfrid D.|
|Petherick, M.||Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)||Womensley, Walter James|
|Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)||Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.||Worthington, Dr. John V.|
|Pickering, Ernest H.||Skelton, Archibald Noel||Wragg, Herbert|
|Pickford, Hon. Mary Ada||Slater, John||Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)|
|Pike, Cecil F.||Somervell, Donald Bradley|
|Procter, Major Henry Adam||Southby, Commander Archibald||TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—|
|Ralkes, Henry V. A. M.||Spencer, Captain Richard A.||Sir Victor Warrender and Sir|
|Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)||Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)||Murdoch McKenzie Wood.|
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.