§ 1. Mr. TINKERasked the Minister of Labour if he will give the latest figures available from the Leigh, Atherton and Tyldesley Employment Exchanges, showing the number of cases dealt with by the public assistance committee for transitional payments; how many have received full benefits; how many less than full benefits; and the number totally disallowed?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONBetween 12th November, 1931, and 23rd January, 1932, the Leigh public assistance committee gave determinations on 8,078 applications for transitional payment. In 2,142 cases payment was allowed at the normal benefit rates, and in 4,097 eases at lower rates, while in 1,839 cases the needs of applicants were held not to justify payment being made. The figures include renewals and revisions of determinations, and the number of separate individuals concerned is not available.
§ 2. Mr. TINKERasked the Minister of Labour if he will give the latest figures available from the Lancashire County Council showing the number of eases submitted to them from the Employment Exchanges under the terms of transitional benefit; how many have been allowed full benefits; how many less than the full amount; the number disallowed altogether; and how the figures compare with the general average of the country?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONAs the reply includes a table of figures, I will, if I may, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
§ Mr. TINKERIf I can prove to the right hon. Gentleman that there is a disparity in the cases allowed and disallowed between one county and another, 993 will he be prepared to meet representations on the matter?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONI should be very glad to see the hon. Member or to receive any communication from him.
| Application for transitional payments, and determinations given by Public Assistance Committees up to 23rd January, 1932 | |||||
| Area. | Applications. | Determinations. | |||
| Payments allowed at normal benefit rates. | Payments allowed at rates lower than normal benefit rates. | Needs of applicants held not to justify payments. | Total determinations. | ||
| Great Britain | 2,198,528 | 943,527 | 665,008 | 275,537 | 1,884,072 |
| Lancashire: Administrative County (i.e. excluding County Boroughs). | 134,908 | 18,929 | 62,745 | 37,146 | 118,820 |
| The figures include renewals and revisions, and the number of separate individuals concerned is not available. |
4. Miss WARDasked the Minister of Labour whether he has received any report from the Employment Exchange concerned in connection with the transitional payment due to Mr. J. G. Forster, of West Allotment, Northumberland, which has been withheld?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONI understand that Mr. Forster did not attend before the public assistance committee when summoned, and did not send an explanation until after the committee had dealt with his application. This is a particular case of a difficulty which I will deal with in reply to the next question which my hon. Friend has on the Paper.
5. Miss WARDasked the Minister of Labour whether he will consider amending legislation to ensure that where legitimate reason is shown, such as the resumption of work, transitional payment shall not be withheld because applicants fail to appear before public assistance committees when requested to do so?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONIf an applicant gives a legitimate reason for not attending when summoned before a public assistance committee, I have no reason to suppose that the committee would not make arrangements to hear him at some other time, and no difficulty should arise in such cases. Difficulty has arisen, as my hon. Friend knows, in cases where the applicant has given no reason for not
§ Mr. KIRKWOODWith all these questions regarding the means test, does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that it is time for him to revise this scheme?
§ Following is the statement:
§ attending and the committee have had no option but to deal with his case in his absence. I am considering whether some further steps could be taken to impress upon applicants the need for sending an explanation if they cannot attend.
§ Sir PERCY HARRISWill my right hon. Friend consider the possibility of making some arrangements in this case for evening meetings?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONI will consider that so far as it is in my power, but I do not know whether it is or is not.
§ 6. Mr. STOURTONasked the Minister of Labour if he will consider introducing legislation to prevent public assistance committees from taking disability pensions into consideration when ex-service men apply for transitional payment?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONI cannot add anything to the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member for St. Pancras North (Captain Fraser) on 3rd December last.
§ Mr. STOURTONIs my right hon. Friend aware that, whereas in some instances public assistance committees deal with these cases generously, in other cases they treat them extremely harshly, and will he be prepared to lay down a scale of uniformity as a guide to these committees in the interest of the ex-service men?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONNo, Sir. That question has often been asked, and I have often given the answer that I have no power to lay down such a Regulation.
§ Mr. KIRKWOODIs the right hon. Gentleman not prepared to raise the matter with the Cabinet, because this is very serious? You may see that hon. Members from every side of the House are putting questions about it.
§ Mr. GODFREY NICHOLSONAs a pure matter of policy, would it not be advisable for the Government to try to satisfy the country that steps are being taken which will give justice to these men?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONI think, in answer to that question, that we have gone a very long way in the last few weeks towards satisfying the country in this matter.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that a large number of Members in this House do not want uniformity, if such uniformity follows the actions of southern public assistance committees?
| Determinations given by Public Assistance Committees in the County and City of London between 12th November, 1931, and 23rd January, 1932, on applications for transitional payments. | |||
| — | Men. | Women. | Total. |
| Payment allowed at the normal benefit rates | 51,078 | 3,699 | 54,777 |
| Payment allowed at lower rates | 17,826 | 1,380 | 19,206 |
| Needs of applicants held not to justify payments being made | 21,463 | 4,237 | 25,700 |
| Totals | 90,367 | 9,310 | 99,683 |
| The figures include renewals and revisions of determinations, and the number of separate individuals concerned is not available. | |||
| Statistics are not available showing the number in each of the classes mentioned in the table who are now unemployed. |
§ 11. Mr. MANDERasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that some public assistance committees are still associating Poor Law methods and phraseology with the administration of the means test; and what steps he is taking to discourage this practice?
§ 12. Mr. LOGANasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that cases have occurred where public assistance committees have questioned applicants for transitional payments as to the efforts
§ Sir ARTHUR SHIRLEY BENNIs not a disability pension merely putting a man who is injured on a par with an able-bodied man, and is it not right that the Government should see that a man is not disqualified from getting his pension owing to his disability?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONThe question which my hon. Friend has just asked is just one of those questions which, I know, is being considered by the Royal Commission, and I await their report with interest.
§ 7. Mr. HICKSasked the Minister of Labour how many persons, men and women, have had their claims for transitional unemployment payments dealt with by the London public assistance committees up to the latest date available; how many are still receiving full payments; how many have been reduced; and in how many cases no payments are being made?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONAs the reply includes a. table of figures, I will, if I may, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
§ Following is the statement:
§ they are making to secure employment; and will he take steps to prevent public assistance committees repeating such action?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONI would remind the hon. Members that under Article 1 (4) of the Order-in-Council an authority is required, in determining the need of an applicant for transitional payments, to make such inquiries and otherwise deal with the case as if they were estimating the need of an unemployed able-bodied 997 person who had applied for public assistance. I see no reason to interfere with the practice of authorities in this matter.
§ Mr. MANDER:Is it the intention of the Minister, that these people should be made to feel that they are being dealt with as if they were under the Poor Law?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONNo. As I have often explained, every step has been taken to differentiate between them and Poor Law cases and to avoid that very stigma to which the hon. Member refers.
§ Mr. MANDERIf I draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to cases where this is being done, will he look into them?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONI shall be glad to consider any cases.
§ 13. Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Labour how many cases for transition payments have been dealt with by the Doncaster public assistance committee and the West Riding (Yorks) public assistance committee to the latest date for which figures are available; how many cases have full benefits been allowed; in how many cases partial benefits; and how many applicants have failed to sustain any claim?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONBetween 12th November, 1931, and 23rd January, 1932, the Doncaster Public Assistance Committee gave determinations on 2,305 applications for transitional payments. In 1,305 cases payment was allowed at the normal benefit rates, and in 758 cases at lower rates, while in 242 cases the needs of applicants were held not to justify payments being made. The figures include renewals and revisions and the number of separate individuals concerned is not available. Corresponding figures for the West Riding administrative county were given in reply to a similar question by the hon. Member for Roth-well (Mr. Lunn) on 4th February.
§ 18. Mr. LAWSONasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that inspectors are informing certain public assistance committees that savings of £20 to £100 in banks, co-operative societies, war savings certificates, etc., must be exhausted before any transitional payments 998 are awarded; that the public assistance committees desire simply to calculate interest on such savings as income; and if he will state the policy of his Department on this matter?
§ 23. Mr. de ROTHSCHILDasked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered the communication sent to him from the Isle of Ely and other county councils asking him if he will issue definite regulations to public assistance committees with a view to ensuring uniformity of practice in assessing capital assets, disability pensions, etc., in connection with the means test; and what action he intends to take?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONThe considerations which may properly be borne in mind by public assistance authorities in determining the need of applicants who are in possession of investments and savings, or in receipt of disability pensions, were brought to their notice in a circular issued from my Department on 10th November last. I have also dealt fully with the position of applicants in receipt of disability pensions in reply to questions in the House. 1 cannot add anything to the circular and to my replies.
§ Mr. LAWSONThe question asked is whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that when the committees exercise their right to interpret the means test, the inspector of his Department and the Ministry of Health have interfered?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONI have no information as to this, and, if the hon. Member will give me any particulars, I shall be glad to look into them.
§ Mr. CROSSLEYAs there is a wide lack of uniformity on this point, will not my right hon. Friend take powers to ensure uniformity?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat question has been answered before.
§ 21. Mr. BUCHANANasked the Minister of Labour if any break occurs in the receiving of payment. by a person who has been granted transitional benefit but whose case had not been considered under the means test by the public assistance committee?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONA person whose application for transitional payments has been allowed by the insurance officer, or, in case of doubt, by the court of referees, must satisfy the public assistance committee as to his needs; but pending a determination by the committee, payment may be made for six days, and there is also provision for an interim determination covering two more weeks if inquiries cannot be completed meanwhile. Under these arrangements there should normally be no delay in making each payment when due. I shall be glad to make inquiry into any case that the hon. Member may with to bring to my notice.
§ 58. Mr. BATEYasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that an inspector, Mr. Grant, told a Durham public assistance committee, on 29th January, 1932, that they must deal with the means test cases on a Poor Law basis, and threatened if they did not they would be supplanted by appointed guardians; and whether he proposes to adopt such a policy?
§ The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Hilton Young)The Order-in-Council requires that a committee dealing with an application for transitional payments shall deal with the case as if they were estimating the need of an unemployed able-bodied person who had applied for public assistance. I am informed that the inspector did no more than he was bound to do in explaining the law and the powers of supersession possessed by the Minister of Labour.
§ Sir H. YOUNGThe hon. Member will find the reply to the latter part of the question in what I have said in answer to the first part. In so far as it is not replied to in answer to the first part, it does not arise.
§ Mr. BATEYDoes the Minister mean to supplant the Poor Law guardians if they do not carry out the means test on a Poor Law basis?
§ Sir H. YOUNGThe hon. Member must draw no such implication. The question was in reference to what was done on a particular occasion. I have 1000 given the information as to what was done on that occasion, and I have ascertained, from the information I have received, that nothing happened but what is the duty of the inspector.
§ Mr. BATEYThe inspector said that these men would be supplanted. Does the Minister agree with that?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat is a matter of argument.
§ Mr. BATEYOn a point of Order. I am not attempting to argue, but I do not think that the Minister should try to get out of a question as he has tried to get out of it.