§ 13. Captain P. MACDONALDasked the Minister of Labour how many applications for transitional benefit have been dealt with by public assistance committees since 1st November, 1931; and whether any estimate has been made of the saving effected by the imposition of the means test in this connection?
§ The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Henry Betterton)Up to the 16th January, 1932, 1,629,009 determinations had been made by public assistance authorities in the case of applicants for transi- 10 tional payments. This number includes renewals and revisions of determinations in accordance with the Regulation by which determinations at present last for a maximum period of four weeks. The number of individuals concerned is not yet known, but it is rather more than a million. Of the determinations, 802,339 were at the normal benefit rates; in 255,949 it was held that the needs of the applicants did not require transitional payments, and in 570,721 a determination of less than the corresponding benefit rate was made. As regards the last part of the question, it is not yet possible to make a precise estimate, but, so far as can be seen at present, there is no reason to expect that savings on the basis given in the White Paper, Cmd. 3952, and the National Economy Bill will not be realised.
§ Captain MACDONALDWhen will my right hon. Friend be able to give an answer to the last part of my question?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONWith regard to the last part of the question, if my hon. and gallant Friend will consult with me, I will let him know, but I hope, within two, or perhaps at the most three, weeks, to give the best estimate that I can.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSHas the right hon. Gentleman, in his analysis, figures to show how many ex-service men with disability pensions, or partially incapacitated workmen, have had their benefit disallowed?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONThere is a Private Notice question which raises that point.
§ Mr. THORNEHas the right hon. Gentleman any information with regard to the number of cases where courts of referees have turned down the recommendations of public assistance committees?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONPerhaps the hon. Member will put that question down; I cannot answer it now.
Lieut.-Colonel MOOREIs the Minister aware that various interpretations are put on these instructions by local authorities?
§ Mr. DAVID GRENFELL(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Labour if he can state how many ex-service men 11 have had their transitional benefit reduced under the transitional payments regulations on the ground that they are in receipt of a war pension or disablement allowance?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONI regret that there are no statistics available on this point.
§ Mr. GRENFELLAre no returns received by the Minister? Are there no figures such as are asked for in the question?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONNo, Sir. As the hon. Member knows, the discrimination in regard to our figures is limited to sex and age, men and women, boys and girls. I am informed that the information for which the hon. Member asks will involve a very heavy task, and the examination, perhaps, of 1,000,000 cases. I am, however, prepared to look into the matter and to see if it is possible to give the information desired.
§ Mr. GRENFELLWill the right hon. Gentleman promise the House to make the inquiries, and when he has found the information will he convey it to his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONI cannot give the promise for which the hon. Member asks, except that I will look into the matter. If the labour involved would be so great as to be intolerable, then I must not undertake the task.
§ Mr. GRENFELLIn view of the statement made by the Prime Minister and other Members of the Government on this point, is not the House entitled to know whether or not the payments of transitional benefit are being received?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONI will look into the matter and see if it is possible, without intolerable labour, to give the hen. Member the information that he desires. If it is not possible, I shall say so.
§ Mr. LOGANIs it not a fact that the Liverpool Assistance Committee are able to give instantaneously any reply in regard to the position. I have been on the assessment committee and I know that they are doing that.
§ Sir H. BETTERTONI am glad to have that information. I was not aware of it.
§ Mr. WALLHEADCan the right hon. Gentleman take 50,000 cases and give the percentage?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONI might take a sample. I will consider that.
Viscountess ASTORDoes not the right hon. Gentleman think that it is a pity to try to make political capital out of the ex-service men?
§ Mr. LUNN(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Labour whether in view of the public interest in the question, he will give particulars as to the practice adopted by public assistance committees in administering the Transitional Payments Regulations as regards ex-service applicants in receipt of a disablement pension or allowance; and whether he will advise public assistance committees to deal generously with disabled ex-service men?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONThe assessment of the need of applicants for transitional payments in receipt of disability pensions is a matter within the discretion of the local authority having regard to the individual circumstances of each case, and is not one on which I have power to issue instructions. In the exercise of their discretion an authority must have regard to the disability and within the limits of the full rate of transitional payments they may make an increase of award on the ground of the disability and the increase of need that results from it. From my information as to the practice of authorities I have no reason to think that they are not in general making use of the powers they possess under the law to deal sympathetically with this class of applicant according to their special needs.
§ Mr. LUNNIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that some public assistance committees are taking into account the full value of the disablement pension, others are taking into account only a part,and some are ignoring it altogether? Is it not time that the Ministry of Labour issued some instructions to public assistance committees to guide them as to the way they should deal with this matter?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONAs I have stated on many occasions, I have no power to issue such instructions. It may be that 13 some authorities are taking into account the full amount of the pension, but it does not follow that they are not making full allowance on the other side of the account.
§ Mr. LUNNIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that a solemn declaration has been made by every Government to assist and defend ex-service men and that the present Government are therefore destroying what every other Government has carried out?
§ Mr. THORNEDoes not the right hon. Gentleman think that the best thing to do is to advise his Government to wipe out the means test altogether?
§ Lieut.-Commander ASTBURYMay I tell the Minister of Labour for his information—[HoN. MEMBERS: "Order!"] May I ask whether he is aware—
§ Mr. SPEAKERWe cannot have a debate on this matter.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMS(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Labour if he will state the conditions under which the County Borough of Sheffield, after deciding that it would not administer the Transitional Payments Regulations, have agreed to carry out their administration?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONThe Sheffield City Council have at no time declined to carry out their statutory duties. No question therefore arises as to the conditions under which they agreed to carry them out.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSIs it not the case that the Sheffield Public Assistance Committee refused to carry out the regulations referred to until they had had an interview with the right hon. Gentleman and his colleague the Minister of Health?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONI understand that on one occasion the public assistance committee did make a recommendation that the council should not proceed to carry out the regulations, but the recommendation was not accepted by the council.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSWill the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to answer my last question Is it not the case that, following the resolution of the public assistance committee, the council refused to administer the regulations until they had had an interview with the right hon. 14 Gentleman or the Minister of Health, or both of them jointly?
§ Sir H. BETTERTONThere was an interview between the city council and the Minister of Labour, and I am glad to say that the city council since that interview have continued to carry out the regulations without any conditions whatsoever.