BENEFICES (TRANSFER OF RIGHTS OF PATRONAGE) MEASURE, 1830. (Hansard, 31 July 1930)

§ Miss PICTON-TURBERVILL
I beg to move, That, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Benefices (Transfer of Rights of Patronage) Measure, 1930, be presented to His Majesty for Royal Assent. I would be most reluctant to bring forward this Measure at this late hour on the last night of a long Session, if I were not quite convinced that it is non-controversial and will really get the support of Members from all sides of the House. It introduces no new principle; it does not remove from the holder of an advowson any right to transfer a benefice, but it regulates the conditions under which that transference can be made. Under the present system it is possible for the patron to sell or give the right of patronage without anybody in the parish knowing anything about it, and with the Bishop himself being kept in complete ignorance on the subject. This Bill merely requires that a certain period shall elapse before a transference can become effective, so that if any parishioners wish to have something to say on the point, they can make their wishes known to the patron. If any hon. Member would wish to ask a few questions, I should be glad to answer them, but at this late hour of the night I merely wish to emphasize that the Measure takes no right from the patron of the advowson, who still has power to transfer patronage, but it regulates the method by which it is done.

§ Mr. ERNEST BROWN
I do not think the speech of the hon. Lady the Member for The Wrekin (Miss Picton-Turbervill) should pass without comment. I regret that these Measures so frequently come up at these late hours, because they are of immense importance to many rural parishes, especially in these days. The comment that I want to make on the hon. Lady's speech is that, having heard a debate in the other House on the matter, I think she is scarcely entitled to describe this as a non-controversial Measure. I cannot refer to the speeches made there, but if she will refresh her memory by looking at them, she will withdraw that remark, because there was a great deal of controversy. I appeal to the hon. Lady to suggest to those responsible for these Measures that, although we cannot alter them, we get them before this time of night.

§ Viscount WOLMER
May I assure my hon. Friend that this Measure really is non-controversial in the broad sense of the term. The Measure contains an exceedingly modest proposal. It is simply that there should be publicity when any advowson is transferred. With regard to, the time the House is compelled to consider these Measures, I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. It is not, however, within the power of the Church Assembly or the hon. Member who moved this Motion, or any other hon. Member. If the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury were able to give an earlier hour for these discussions, nobody would be better pleased than those whose business it is to promote them. We have to take such time as we can get. It is unsatisfactory to take an important. Measure at such a late hour, but this is a Measure on which there has been practically no dispute within the Church, and one which is very modest in its proposals to which no hon. Member has any reason to object.

§ Mr. FOOT
I do not want to appear to be in a position of raising any objection to a Measure being brought in by members of the Church to which I do not belong, but for which I have the highest regard. I am not able, however, to follow the statement that this is a non-controversial Measure. Representations have been made to me and many Members of the House by members of the Established Church raising objection to the 877 Measure. I have been urged to do what I could to oppose this Measure, but I have declined because it is a matter on which those of us who are Nonconformists are in an invidious position. I would like to ask, in view of the representations that have been made to many members of the House, if there is any urgency to pass this Measure. It is either a Measure of great importance or it is not. If it is not of great importance, there can be no difficulty in it being considered at a time when we can bring an intelligent consideration to bear upon it. If it is of great importance, it is wrongful to pass it with an inadequate explanation on the eve of the Recess, and when no Member of the House except those who are members of the Ecclesiastical Committee and those who are able to follow ecclesiastical affairs, can place his hand on his heart and give an intelligent account of the Bill. If it is an unimportant Measure, therefore, I ask those who are concerned to meet us who have had these representations. If it is important, is it not fair to urge that those of us who are here between 12 and 1 o'clock in the middle of the night, should not be asked to commit ourselves to a Measure which very few of us understand?

§ Mr. EDE
I hope the hon. Members responsible for this measure will not press it on the House to-night. After all, it will settle matters for 100 years [Interruption]. Oh, yes, for two lives, though I admit those are exceptional cases. In any event it will settle for a considerable time what will happen in certain districts. All the Measure does is to allow certain people to say that they do not like something to be done. Parishioners are allowed to make certain submissions, but the only advantage of that is that they have had an opportunity of blowing off a certain amount of steam, because they cannot make their protests effective. And that is called "gaining publicity." We ought not to have a Measure like this mixed up with Gas Orders. I am sure the noble Lord himself realised the incongruity of it. If the subject is worth considering at all it ought to be brought before the House in such a manner that we can give a considered and proper judgment upon it. There are serious spiritual interests involved, because this represents an at- 878 tempt to do something to palliate what a good many people believe to be one of the scandals of the Church. I notice that the hon. Member for Carlisle (Mr. G. Middleton) has gone. He has stood up for everything he could up to now, but even he realised that this case is hopeless.

§ Mr. BOWEN
I suggest that the opposition which is being shown to this Measure is unnecessary. I cannot understand hon. Members complaining of having to discuss this Measure at this hour of night after the experience some of us have had of having to sit here listening to long speeches through all-night sittings.

§ Mr. E. BROWN
My complaint is not against this particular Measure: my point is that we get these Measures at this hour time after time.

§ Mr. BOWEN
I am not aware that those who are responsible for that Measure are responsible for its position on the Order Paper. No one is keener than I am that there should be the fullest possible discussion of all subjects, but I have sat here for hours listening to discussions which could easily have taken place in the daytime.

§ Mr. E. BROWN
So have we.

§ Mr. BOWEN
Then we are sufferers together, and I think the objections we have heard about the want of time ought not to weigh very materially in this discussion. The merits of the case itself have been fully explained, and there is no real case for the objection advanced. These matters have to be discussed by the Church Assembly and the presumption is that the Assembly have examined the issues and come to a decision upon them. Till such time as we do not accept responsibility for passing these Measures, that circumstance must, be taken into account, and having regard to the fact that those responsible for the Measure are in no way responsible for its being brought on so late, I suggest that we might reasonably agree to its passing.