HC Deb 30 January 1930 vol 234 cc1311-21

Lords Amendment: In page 11, line 17, at the end, insert: Provided that no person shall be entitled to receive benefit under the said Sub-section (2) of Section fourteen of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1927, as extended by the Unemployment Insurance (Transitional Provisions Amendment) Act, 1929, or by the present Act, after the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and thirty-one.


I must point out that this Amendment, again, raises a question of Privilege.


I beg to move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."


I think that, after the speech of the right hon. Lady on the last Amendment, she should give us some reason why she moves to disagree with this Amendment, in view of the fact that she said that she understood her Second Reading speech, which has been the subject of frequent quotation this afternoon, to apply to the transitional provisions. There will be 100,000 people who will fall out of insurance, for whom, for the first time in history, as the right hon. Lady explained, she is making provision whereby they are carried, not by the Insurance Fund, but wholly by the taxpayer. The effect of her speech was that she wanted to make it quite clear that that was an experiment, and it is, if I may say so, the one experiment which we on this side of the House welcome. In view, however, of the right hon. Lady's statement that it is an experiment, this is clearly a case for putting a definite time limit into the Bill.

It seems to me to be perfectly obvious that to attempt to carry people who are practically uninsured, or have fallen out of insurance, wholly by the State, and yet pay them the relief through the machinery of the Unemployment Insurance Fund, is bound to break down, because, as we have pointed out, it continues the confusion between relief and insurance which has been the root of all the trouble of successive Unemployment Insurance Acts. When you come to deal with those people who are no longer insurable risks, who have been unemployed in some cases for two whole years, the standard rates of benefit do not and cannot necessarily apply as an alleviation in those cases. In cases of relief as apart from insurance, the question that has to be decided is how much relief is needed, having regard to the needs of these individuals, and each individual case has to be settled on its merits. You clog the Employment Exchanges in their work of finding work and all the rest of it by turning them into relieving authorities, and we say that, welcome as is this provision making a clear distinction between insurance and relief, the experiment of attempting to administer pure relief through the machinery of the Employment Exchanges is bound to fail within the year, and that it will be the duty of the Government, as soon as their Committee on the Social Services has reported, to produce in Parliament a Bill to rectify the fundamental evil into which we have got in a succession of Bills dealing with this subject.

Therefore, if ever there were a case, there is a case all along the line for making the whole of this Bill experimental, and ensuring that in the coming autumn the Government will review all these provisions. On the Minister's own showing, there is a clear ease that this year this experiment of relief wholly paid by the taxpayer, paid at a flat rate of benefit which is utterly unscientific and utterly inadequate for dealing with cases of particular distress, should be the subject of new legislation at the earliest possible moment. We on this side of the House certainly think that the Lords are perfectly right in making clear to the country, and endeavouring to get inserted into an Act of Parliament, the fact that the Minister was right in her Second Reading speech when she said that this new feature should be experimental. We want to make its experimental nature statutory, and to make it clear that the House should not regard this as a permanently satisfactory solution of one of the most difficult sides of this problem, which the Government have begun to tackle but which they have not seen through to the end.


Might I ask the right hon. Lady to give us an explanation of this? This is one of the most extraordinary Amendments of all. It was moved in another place without an explanation by a Noble Lord speaking from the Front Opposition Bench, it was agreed to by the other House without a speech from the Government Bench and it is now moved that we should not agree with it again without a single word of explanation.


This Amendment, like most of the others on this page, is consequential on the second Amendment on page 3. We do not deal with Lords' Amendments in the same way that we deal with Amendments to an ordinary Bill in Committee. If it were so, we should not debate anything. We should deal with them as consequential on the main question, which was discussed and decided on a previous Amendment that a time limit should not be included in the Bill as put in by the House of Lords. I cannot allow discussions on these various Amendments as it would only be a repetition.


We had a ruling from Mr. Deputy-Speaker when a previous Amendment on quite a small point was under discussion, on page 5, line 16. That Amendment was analogous to the present one in the sense that it was a question of limitation, but on a small point which, as you said, is really consequential to the main question of limitation which is dealt with in the Amendment at the end. On that occasion Mr. Deputy-Speaker did not allow my hon. Friends to discuss the main question of limitation generally, but ruled that they must strictly confine themselves to the precise point with regard to that Clause, and my hon. Friends endeavoured to do so. We will bow to your ruling at once, but the course that has been taken has placed us in some difficulty.


That really arises from the fact I have just explained, that in considering these Amendments we do not deal with them in the same way as we should if a Bill was being considered in Committee in this House. No doubt there are different points that arise on these various Amendments, but they are all affected by the main question and are really all consequential on it.


I naturally bow to your ruling, Sir, as I hope every Member of the House would, but I hope to extract an assurance from the right hon. Lady that, when we come to the Amendment on which these are consequential, she will at least favour the House with her views on the subject in rather a fuller form that she has done so far.

Question put, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

The House divided: Ayes, 278; Noes, 127.

Division No. 125.] AYES. [9.48 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Ede, James Chuter Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Edmunds, J. E. Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Kelly, W. T.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Egan, W. H. Kennedy, Thomas
Alpass, J. H. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Kinley, J.
Ammon, Charles George Foot, Isaac Kirkwood, D.
Angell, Norman. Forgan, Dr. Robert Lang, Gordon
Arnott, John Freeman, Peter Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George
Aske, Sir Robert Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Lathan, G.
Attlee, Clement Richard George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn) Law, Albert (Bolton)
Ayles, Walter George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Law, A. (Rosendale)
Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Button) George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Lawrence, Susan
Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Gibbins, Joseph Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)
Barnes, Alfred John Gill, T. H. Lawson, John James
Batey, Joseph Gillett, George M. Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)
Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Glassey, A. E. Leach, W.
Bennett, Captain E. N.(Cardiff, Central) Gossling, A. G. Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.)
Bennett, William (Batteries, South) Gould, F. Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)
Benson, G. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Lees, J.
Bentham, Dr. Ethel Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Gray, Milner Lindley, Fred W.
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne). Lloyd, C. Ellis
Bowen, J. W. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Logan, David Gilbert
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Longbottom, A. W.
Broad, Francis Alfred Griffiths, T.(Monmouth, Pontypool) Longden, F.
Bromfield, William Groves, Thomas E. Lovat-Fraser, J A.
Bromley, J. Grundy, Thomas W. Lowth, Thomas
Brooke, W. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normantont) Lunn, William
Brothers, M. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) McElwee, A.
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Harbison, T. J. McEntee, V. L.
Buchanan, G. Harbord, A. McKinlay, A.
Burgess, F. G. Hardie, George D. MacLaren, Andrew
Burgin, Dr. E. L. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon MacNeill-Weir, L.
Buxton, C R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland) Hastings, Dr. Somerville Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.) Haycock, A. W. Mander, Geoffrey le M.
Caine, Derwent Hall- Hayday, Arthur Mansfield, W.
Cameron, A. G. Hayes, John Henry March, S.
Cape, Thomas Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Marcus, M.
Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) Markham, S. F.
Charleton, H. C. Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Marley, J.
Church, Major A. G. Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Mathers, George
Clarke, J. S. Herriotts, J. Matters, L. W.
Cluse, W. S. Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Maxton, James
Cocks, Frederick Seymour Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Melville, Sir James
Campton, Joseph Hoffman, P. C. Millar, J. D.
Cove, William G. Horrabin, J. F. Mills, J. E.
Daggar, George Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Milner, J.
Dallas, George Hunter, Dr. Joseph Montague, Frederick
Dalton, Hugh Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Morgan, Dr. H. B.
Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) Isaacs, George Morris, Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Jenkins, W.(Glamorgan, Neath) Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)
Denman, Hon. R. D. Johnston, Thomas Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)
Devlin, Joseph Jones, F. Llewellyn (Flint) Mort, D. L.
Dickson, T. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)
Dudgeon, Major C. R. Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Mosley, Sir Oswald (Sraethwick)
Dukes, C. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Muggeridge, H. T.
Duncan, Charles Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Murnin, Hugh.
Nathan, Major H. L.
Naylor, T. E. Scott, James Toole, Joseph
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Scurr, John Tout, W. J.
Noel Baker, p. J. Sexton, James Townend, A. E.
Oldfield, J. R. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Trevelyan, RL Hon. Sir Charles
Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Turner, B.
Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Vaughan, D. J.
Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Sherwood, G. H. Viant, S. P.
Palin, John Henry. Shield, George William Walker, J.
Paling, Wilfrid Shiels, Dr. Drummond Wallace, H. W.
Palmer, E. T. Shillaker, J. F. Wallhead, Richard C.
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Watkins, F. C.
Perry, S. F. Simmons, C. J. Wellock, Wilfred
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington) Welsh, James (Paisley)
Phillips, Dr. Marion Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)
Picton-Turbervill, Edith Sitch, Charles H. West, F. R.
Pole, Major D. G. Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Westwood, Joseph
Potts, John S. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) White, H. G.
Pybus, Percy John Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
Quibell, D. J. K. Smith, Ton (Pontefract) Whiteley, William (Blaydon)
Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Rathbone, Eleanor Snell, Harry Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Raynes, W. R. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Richards, R. Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Sorensen, R. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Stamford, Thomas W. Wilson, J. (Oldham)
Ritson, J. Stephen, Campbell Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh)
Romeril, H. G. Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)
Rosbotham, D. S. T. Strauss, G. R. Wright, W. (Rutherglen)
Rowson, Guy Sullivan, J. Young, R. S. (Islington, North)
Salter, Dr. Alfred Sutton, J. E.
Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Mr. B. Smith and Mr. Charles
Sandham, E. Thurtle, Ernest Edwards.
Sawyer, G. F. Tinker, John Joseph
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Ganzoni, Sir John Reid, David D. (County Down)
Albery, Irving James Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Reynolds, Col. Sir James
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.) Glyn, Major R. G. C. Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)
Atholl, Duchess of Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell
Atkinson, C. Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Ruggles-Brise, Lieut. Colonel E. A.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Greene, W. P. Crawford Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Salmon, Major I.
Balniel, Lord Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Savery, S. S.
Beaumont, M. W. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst)
Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Haslam, Henry C. Skelton, A. N.
Bird, Ernest Roy Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Smithers, Waldron
Boyce, H. L. Kurd, Percy A. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Bracken, B. Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y) Iveagh, Countess of Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke Naw'gton) Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur
Carver, Major W. H. Kindersley, Major G. M. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Castle Stewart, Earl of King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D. Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.
Christie, J. A. Knox, Sir Alfred Thomson, Sir F.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Titchfield, Major the Marques of
Colville, Major D. J. Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Todd, Capt. A. J.
Conway, Sir W. Martin Leighton, Major S. E. P. Train, J.
Courtauld, Major J. S. Llewellin, Major J. J. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Long, Major Eric Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert
Croom-Johnson, R. P. Lymington, Viscount Wardlaw-Milne, J. S.
Dalkeith, Earl of Makins, Brigadier-General E. Warrender, Sir Victor
Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Marjoribanks, E. C. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Wells, Sydney R.
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Davies, Dr. Vernon Mond, Hon. Henry Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Duckworth, G. A. V. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Withers, Sir John James
Dugdale, Capt. T. L Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount
Eden, Captain Anthony Muirhead, A. J. Womersley, W. J.
Edmondson, Major A. J. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Elliot, Major Waiter E. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Everard, W. Lindsay Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Capt. Margesson and Sir George
Fison, F. G. Clavering Power, Sir John Cecil Penny.
Forestler-Walker, Sir L. Ramsbotham, H.

Lords Amendment: In page 11, line 42, at the end, insert "Until the first day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-one."


This Amendment again raises the question of Privilege.


I beg to move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

The House divided: Ayes, 280; Noes, 125.