CLERGY PENSIONS (OLDER INCUMBENTS) MEASURE. (Hansard, 9 April 1930)

§ Miss PICTON-TURBERVILL
I beg to move, That, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Clergy Pensions (Older Incumbents) Measure be presented to His Majesty for Royal Assert. 11.0 p.m.
I hope the House will agree that this is a Measure that is long overdue. It has been one of the tragic aspects of the Church of England that men after long and faithful service have received no pension. Until 1926 there was no uniform system of pensions at all, and even the Pensions Measures of 1926 and 1928 did not include the older men of 55. This 2321 Measure remedies that defect, and in future, if this Measure receives the Royal Assent, every incumbent over 55 who is either infirm horn old age or who from mental or physical incapacity cannot discharge his duties will of right have a small pension, ranging from £150 to £175.
This puts an end to the uncertain and chaotic condition of the pensions for the older clergy. As it applies only to those over 55 years of age, the other clergy having already been provided for by the Measures of 1926 and 1928, it is obvious that this Measure is but a temporary Measure. After 20 or perhaps at the most 30 years there will be no longer any need for it. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners have set aside £1,500,000 to meet the expense of the scheme, and I would like to point out that it will bring no cost to the State at all. This Measure has been approved by the Ecclesiastical Committee of both houses, and it has been carried through all its stages with the support of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the Pensions Board. This Measure will put an end to a tragic condition which has too long obtained in the Church of England.

§ Major Sir JOHN BIRCHALL
I beg to second the Motion.

§ Mr. MANDER
I desire to support this Measure, and at the same time to ask one or two questions, because I do not think that a Measure of this importance, containing 17 Clauses, ought to be allowed to go through as a matter of course without careful examination by this House. The Measure will perform an admirable service, and provide pensions for a number of gentlemen who thoroughly deserve assistance and support of that kind. The hon. Lady referred to a sum of £1,500,000 as having been put aside by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. The sum mentioned in the report of the Ecclesiastical Committee was £1,250,000. I do not know whether that was a slip?

§ Miss PICTON-TURBERVILL
It was a slip.

§ Mr. MANDER
It is a regrettable necessity that the clergy should be called upon to make contributions for the pensions of the others, but it is impracticable to find the money by any other means, and as it is a temporary Measure, it was thought better to deal with it along 2322 those lines, and ask the existing clergy to make some sacrifice for their older colleagues. Was this Measure carried through the Church Assembly at every stage unanimously? Were there any divisions, and if so, what was the relative proportions supporting and opposing? I notice that the Channel Islands are excluded. There is no doubt some good reason for that, but I should like to know why the older clergy of the Channel Isles are not going to be allowed to receive this pension.

§ Mr. EDE
I desire to compare this Measure with one which we passed the other night, and to mention certain omissions. As this is connected with ecclesiastical matters, I suppose that it will be no surprise to the House that it is drawn up on strictly scriptural lines on the basis that "to him that hath shall be given." This Measure, as compared with the one which we had the other night, requires more defence than it has had. We had my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Mr. Middleton) the other evening actually suggesting, on the Measure we then had for giving pensions to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, that he would like to see a pension of the full salary and allowances that are at present being paid given to men who are getting an income far in excess of anything likely to be obtained by the pensioners under this Measure. I cannot help thinking that those people who bear the burden and heat of the day might have received from one of the richest churches in Christendom rather better treatment than they are receiving in this Measure.
I should like to draw attention to the omission from this Measure, and from all pensions measures of the Church of England, of the curates of the Church. I understand that hon. Members were persuaded by Government Whips to go into the Lobby the other night in support of the Measure by the tale that they were voting for a pension to my hon. Friend, and that they were voting for pensions for poor curates. Neither by that Measure nor by this will curates of the Church of England get a single penny pension. I hope that it will not be long before this great Church and the Ecclesiastical Commissioners will be able to bring before the House a scheme that will 2323 assure a pension to people who have never been beneficed clergy, but have throughout their career been curates.

§ Miss PICTON-TURBERVILL
In reply to the questions raised, I would like to say, first, that the sum of £1,500,000 was a mistake; it ought to have been £1,250,000. I thought I had said that. The Third Reading of the Measure was passed unanimously in the Church Assembly; though, no doubt, it was the subject of a number of proposals in committee. I very much value the suggestion of the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) that the sum is too small, but I assume that it is as much as the Church is able to give at present. The fact that the Channel Islands are not included is due to the fact that their inclusion presented too many difficulties. As far as the question of pensions for curates is concerned, I can only say that progress on that subject must be made step by step. We began with beneficed clergy of a certain age and now we have made an advance on that beginning and I have no doubt that, eventually, curates will be included.

§ Mr. SCRYMGEOUR
I regard this Bill as a step in the right direction. It is gratifying to know that the Church is putting an end to what has been in the past, an absolute scandal. We have seen struggling, earnest Christian men who have laboured in connection with the wealthiest Church in the country, left unprovided for in their old age. Even now curates, another section of the arduous workers for the Christian Church, are left out of the scheme. The Measure is gratifying as far as it goes, but I must express my regret that it does not go to the full length it ought to.
Question put, and agreed to.