§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood)I beg to move, in page 55, line 22, to leave out the words "amounting to", and to insert instead thereof the words:
(2) The amount of the General Exchequer Contribution shall be periodically revised; the amount first fixed shall be for a period of three years beginning on the appointed day, the amount fixed on the first revision shall be for a period of four years from the expiration of the first period, the amount fixed on any subsequent revision shall be for a period of five years from the expiration of the previous period, and a period for which the General Exchequer Contribution is so fixed is hereinafter referred to as a 'fixed period.'(3) The amount of the General Exchequer Contribution shall be.This Amendment, which I am moving on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, and the consequential Amendments which follow give effect to the new proposals which have been made 254 by the Government after consultation with the association of local authorities and they provide that the first two periods for which the Exchequer contribution will be fixed under this Clause will be periods of three years and four years respectively instead of five years, and for each of these two periods, called under the Bill "grant periods," the grant allocated to each county and county borough, which we call in the Bill "county and county borough apportionment," will be 75 per cent. of the estimated loss on account of rates and grants for the standard year together with their share under the formula of the balance of the general Exchequer contribution for the period. Those two periods will be followed by two periods of five years, and the part of the grant allocated to each county and county borough on the basis of the lose of rates and grants over these two later periods, each of five years, will be 50 per cent. and 25 per cent. respectively of the estimated losses on account of rates and grants on what we call the standard year. Another important consequence 255 follows the result of this Amendment if it is adopted, and it is this; that the total period for transition to the full working of the formula will be extended from 15 years to 17 years. Thereafter the grant periods will be quinquennial periods, and it is proposed that after 1931 the census should be taken at quinquennial intervals so that the distribution of the grant will be based on census figures instead of on estimates.Members of the Committee will remember that one of the criticisms which was put forward by local authorities was that under our previous proposals a good many of the financial results of this Bill might depend upon the population estimates. This proposal to a large extent meets that criticism. The fixed grant periods will be 1930 to 1932, 1933 to 1936, 1937 to 1941 and 1942 to 1946. The next census will be taken in 1931 and, thereafter, if this proposal is adopted the census years will be 1936, 1941 and 1946, and whilst the first revision in 1933 will be based on the estimated population of 1932, the year immediately following the census, hereafter the revision will take place in the year immediately following the census and will be based on the actual census figures. That to a large extent meets the criticism of that particular point. This is the first of the Amendments the Government are moving as the result of the consultations which have taken place with local authorities; and which they have accepted. I therefore move the Amendment as carrying out the proposals which have been made and I commend it to the Committee on that ground.
§ The CHAIRMANIt will be for the convenience of the Committee if the words "amounting to" are struck out, because until they are disposed of the Amendments of the hon. Lady for East Ham, North (Miss Lawrence) to the proposed Amendment cannot be put.
§ Question, "That the words 'amounting to,' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That those words be there inserted.
§ Miss LAWRENCEI just want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary one question. Sub-section (3) of a later Amendment to Clause 72 says: 256
For the purposes of this Section the standard sum as respects any county shall be the amount of the loss on account of rates and grants of that county.Does that mean the loss on account of rates and grant in the year 1928–29 or does it refer to subsequent years?
§ Mr. T. GRIFFITHSI do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary has seen the report which has been submitted by an accountant in respect of local authorities in the South Wales and Monmouthshire area. In this report the accountant states that any necessary adjustments will be spread at the rate of one-sixteenth each year over a period of 40 years, and thus the special provision in the Bill for mitigating changes in rate poundage will be extended in all from 15 years to 19 years. So far as the county of Glamorgan is concerned this proposal means that the urban districts of Mountain Ash—Penarth—
§ The CHAIRMANThe only question raised by the Amendment is the period of the various ascertainments. The amounts according to the formula come later. This is only a question of how long the first ascertainment shall last.
§ Mr. GRIFFITHSI thought I would be in order in putting the question now, hut after your ruling I shall do so later. The point that I wish the Parliamentary Secretary to keep in mind is this—
§ The CHAIRMANThe Parliamentary Secretary would be quite wrong to keep in mind something that was out of order.
§ Mr. COVEAs I understand the Amendment the concession of the Treasury to local authorities is a review of the ratio from time to time. Apparently the net result of the concession is that the original quinquennial periods have now become three years, four years, and five years and so on. I cannot imagine that the local authorities were very enthusiastic about this concession. As a matter of fact there are several very important considerations to be borne in mind when discussing the ratio of grant-borne expenditure to that of rate-borne expenditure, and the first of those considerations is this: It is not an individual ratio to an indivdual and particular authority. It is not a guarantee to Authority A and Authority B and Authority C, as separate autho- 257 rities, that the ratio of the grant that they now receive to their rate-borne expenditure shall be maintained in future—
§ The CHAIRMANThat question comes later. The only question here is as to how long the first ascertainment shall last and when it shall be revised. It is purely a question of period. The question of substance, as to amounts, does not arise here at all.
§ Mr. COVEI thought it could arise, because it is to be a matter of substance and not a matter of mere make-believe. I want to pursue it a little further, and if I am out of order I hope I shall have an opportunity of dealing with the matter later. It was the aggregate guarantee in the first place which lasted over a period of five years. Now it is an aggregate guarantee which has to be reviewed in three years' and four years' time, and subsequently in periods of five years. Since it is an aggregate guarantee, it does not matter to particular individual authorities how often it is reviewed if the revision has no relation to those individual authorities. If the Ministry wanted to benefit the authorities it would be a question not merely of altering the times during which the ratios would be reviewed, but a question of altering the whole formula. I understand that the object of the Government now is to meet the authorities so far as rate-borne expenditure is concerned. Obviously, whether a matter is reviewed in three years' or four years' or five years' time, if the money that is to be pooled is distributed on a formula that has no relation to expenditure, the review is of no use at all.
§ The CHAIRMANWe have not come to the formula yet. The only question is as to how long the first arrangement shall last.
§ Miss LAWRENCEThe Amendment says that the grant shall be revised after certain periods. It is very difficult to understand what precise importance to attach to the words "periodically revised." Will the Parliamentary Secretary explain what they mean?
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Lady is in order in asking for an explanation of the meaning. That is quite a different thing from discussing the whole formula.
§ Miss LAWRENCEI have spent two painful days wondering what we should do. This is really a serious difficulty, and can we have it cleared up?
§ The CHAIRMANI have had to spend a great deal more than two painful days on the matter. The word "revision" here must apply to the total general Exchequer contribution, and, that being so, I do not think that the formula comes in at all. But as the word "revision" is in the Amendment, I think the hon. Lady is in order in asking what it comprises.
§ Sir K. WOODI shall be happy to reply, but I was anxious to hear all the observations on the Amendment and to make my speech at the end. I understood that the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Cove) had not finished his speech.
§ The CHAIRMANI must point out that the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Cove) has so far not been in order.
§ Sir K. WOODHe may approach a bit nearer to order later. The answer to one of the questions I was asked is that the year is the standard year, 1928–29. As to the point put by the hon. Member for Wellingborough the Amendment means that at the request of the local authorities, instead of taking the period which was originally fixed, of five years, that is the quinquennial period, we have altered it to a period of three years in the first instance and a period of four years in the second. After that the quinquennial periods follow. That is all that this particular Amendment proposes. What the local authorities said to us was that instead of allowing the new system to go on for a period of five years before revision, we should shorten the period, and in the Amendment that is done.
§ Miss WILKINSONDoes the right hon. Gentleman mean that in that case it will be two years longer before the formula comes into operation?
§ Sir K. WOODYes, the full formula, but that, again, is another matter. As far as the local authorities are concerned, as I said in my opening observations, the total period provided for transition to the full working of the formula will be extended from 15 years to 17 years. This observation may be made—that, 259 from the point of view of a town like Middlesbrough, where the working of the formula may be desired to come into immediate operation, it means a postponement.
§ The CHAIRMANWhat is the formula to which the right hon. Gentleman alludes? Is this in reference to the special Exchequer contribution?
§ Sir K. WOODNo, this is the general Exchequer contribution.
§ The CHAIRMANThe formula which I had in mind was another formula which is dealt with later on.
§ Mr. T. GRIFFITHSAnd am I not also in order?
§ Sir K. WOODPerhaps I may be allowed to make one further observation in order that the matter may be made perfectly plain. What I am referring to now is the general Exchequer contribution. What follows from this Amendment is that the period first will be shortened. It also follows as a consequence of this alteration that the full working of the formula is postponed from 15 years to 17 years.
§ Miss WILKINSONSeeing that certain benefits were held out to towns like Middlesbrough and that these benefits can only come in with the full working of the formula, does the right hon. Gentleman propose to make any compensation in such cases for the extension of the period?
§ Sir K. WOODThe answer to that question is that Middlesbrough under this scheme already gets very considerable benefits, and one has to consider, in connection with a Bill of this kind, the benefit of the great majority of local authorities in the country. It is true that in Middlesbrough they may have to wait a short period longer before they get the full benefit of the scheme; but, on the other hand, there are the other local authorities who wanted to have this matter spread over the longer period in the way I have indicated. Therefore, in a matter of this kind one has to take into account what will benefit the great majority.
§ Miss LAWRENCEI beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 2, to leave out the word "three," and to insert instead thereof the word "two."
We have now before us some of the concessions given to the local authorities. The local authorities after desperate struggles, after continual deputations and resolutions passed all over the country, have succeeded in avoiding the full blessings of the formula for another couple of years. That is their first and greatest success; and it is an interesting comment upon what those on whom the shoe is to be fitted think of the shoe. On this matter it is very difficult indeed to keep in order. As I have told you, Sir, I have spent two days in painful study of one word without being quite sure of its meaning. Now, however, light has dawned upon me. I think the word "revision" is almost wholly meaningless, and if I proceed upon that assumption, I think I shall escape being ruled out of order. The first concession to the local authorities has been that the first quinquennium is to be reduced to three years, while the second quinquennium is to be reduced to four years. Then there is a very important and almost unprecedented new Clause, which bears upon the second of these fixed grant periods. We have down on the Paper a promise that before the expiration of the second fixed grant period there shall be an investigation, and that the result of the investigation shall be submitted to Parliament—in fact that the whole thing shall be put into the melting pot before the first seven years are over.
This Measure is now, confessedly, a provisional and stop-gap Measure. The local authorities have been bought over to desist from their full and active opposition on the ground that the period shall be shortened i that, anyhow, they shall get two years more of grace from the formula, that the little boroughs shall get a lengthened period of grace from the block grant, that the thing shall be "revised"—whatever that means—at the end of three years, and that Parliament itself shall decide the question before seven years are over. That is an exact measure of the welcome given by the local authorities to a scheme which according to the Minister of Health to day, is to give them all so much money 261 and make them all so comfortable, that they will be willing and ready to undertake new social services. In all my experience and in all I have ever read of the history of local government, it is the very first time that local authorities have ever objected to a scheme which was to give them more money. It raises in one's mind certain doubts as to whether all those golden promises of the Minister which we heard this afternoon are justified.
The term of the punishment has been shortened, but the punishment itself remains the same. Of course, it is a very good thing that the prisoner at the bar has got from the judge a shortening of the period of sentence. We are to have a revision sooner than was expected, and I had some faint hopes when I read an Amendment which appears later on the Paper that the new definition of "standard sum" meant a re-allocation on a different basis of the new general Exchequer contribution. That hope has been dashed to the ground. We are still proceeding to calculate the total to be paid in successive years to the local authorities on a basis which more and more every year departs from their actual losses. The general Exchequer contribution for the first year is the amount of the losses in the standard year in rates, and the amount of the losses in the standard year in grants. There is a certain addition, and, it is true, that if all stood still during those three years—if neither rateable value nor expenses increased—the local authorities, on the whole, would be a trifle better off. But the first point I make is that we are now in times which are the reverse of normal, and the effect of the formula may change from year to year, and rateable values may change very steeply indeed. Unemployment creates a great loss of rateable value. If we get back to employment in any particular district, the rateable value will rise, and the amount of losses to local authorities will therefore be very much greater. Some districts may revive very quickly, some may become even more depressed, and the first point I want to make for revision every year is just this, that the conditions of localities may change very greatly indeed.
The next thing I have to say is that we have a little shortened the period and given an opportunity for revision—that is 262 all that we have done—at the end of three years, but the essential vice of this matter remains the same. At the end of the three years the Exchequer grant will be altered according to the Clause. It will be reviewed so as to place the matter on very much more an expenditure basis than at present. This year we know the first general Exchequer contribution. The general Exchequer contribution for the third year under the scheme laid down will be a quarter of the general Exchequer contribution of the first year, plus a quarter of the rate-borne expenditure in the penultimate year. At the end of the three years it will be a quarter of the total rate-borne contribution for the penultimate year, plus one-sixteenth of the total rate-borne contribution of the penultimate year of the first period, plus one-sixteenth of the first Exchequer contribution. Year by year, that is to say, the thing comes more and more upon a purely expenditure basis and less and less relates to the losses of the local authority. That would be in ordinary times a very great evil, where we have nothing to expect but the ordinary, natural, slow growth of rateable property, but it is very little less than a crime now, when some local authorities are stripped of their rateable value from a cause which we all hope may pass away and leave them with a more normal rateable value, and, if for that cause alone, we ought to have yearly revisions of the general Exchequer grant.
Lower on the Paper we have put down what we consider the proper thing to do, which is to pay the debts arising as and when they arise. What the Minister is still impenitent upon and still intends to do is to pay his debts on a scale proportionate to the income of the creditor, and I am anxious that the fantastic manner in which he estimates the total should be revised by Parliament as soon as possible. I put down an Amendment to show our hope, but it is more than a hope, it is a certainty. This business cannot stand. This business will have to be revised. This business will be almost the first thing which the local authorities will bring to the attention of the new Parliament. It has no support in the country whatever. It is a thing grudgingly acquiesced in by the local authorities as the best they can get. It is a thing towards which they have managed to get the attention of 263 Parliament directed at an earlier date than the Minister originally intended, but the local authorities will undoubtedly have very much more power of revision in the next Parliament, and I hope that a year from now, you, Mr. Hope, will be guiding our deliberations on the final Clause of the Bill repealing this legislation. You will have, I venture to prophesy, a far easier task than—
§ The CHAIRMANTwo years would not have elapsed by that time.
§ Miss LAWRENCEThat is my point, that with a new Parliament the local authorities will not wait for two years. With a new Parliament, and one of the complexion we anticipate—
§ The CHAIRMANUnder the hon. Lady's Amendment the revision will not take place until after two years have elapsed.
§ Miss LAWRENCEI was saying that this Amendment to the proposed Amendment was put down to express our desires. Our hopes are better than those we have put on the Paper. Our hopes are so strong that I can see, as plainly as I see you now, Mr. Hope, the pleasant vision of you in the future presiding over the—
§ The CHAIRMANThe occupant of the Chair must not be subject to blandishments.
§ Miss LAWRENCEI will drop the subject altogether, but I only desire to say, quite seriously, that we are glad to see that local authorities have so far hammered the scheme out of shape and that we look forward to being able to destroy it and to build up a better one altogether.
§ Mr. PALINI desire to support the Amendment to the proposed Amendment, because I believe it will make the scheme more commendable to the local authorities who have to work it, and it certainly would be very greatly to the advantage of the Government if they were to accept the shortened period which we propose. It is true, as the hon. Member for Skipton (Mr. Bird) said the other night, that this Measure is no vote-catcher, and if it is desired really to make it workable and to treat it as a 264 serious Measure, the fears of the local authorities would be greatly allayed if they could have a revaluation in the shortest possible period.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSI do not intend to deal with the formula and the general Exchequer contribution, which, after all, are one and indivisible, but I submit that the Amendment should be accepted for this reason: The right hon. Gentleman will remember that on several occasions during Debates in this House efforts have been made to ascertain from the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary what exactly was the position with regard to the West Riding of Yorkshire once the formula began to apply, and in no single instance, so far as I have been able to ascertain, have we received a direct reply. It seems to me that when referring to the question of any general revision, the knowledge that out of 125 authorities in the West Riding area no fewer than 84 would find themselves with increases in rates, offers full justification for demanding, at the earliest possible date, a revision on the basis of the known expenditure of local authorities at that time. It is obvious that in developing districts where the assessable area has been contracted, and where expenditure is increasing, unless revisions are made fairly quickly some authorities already sorely depressed will find themselves more depressed because of the three-year period upon which the Minister insists. While the local authorities might have accepted the compromise of the right hon. Gentleman, that is only because these were the best terms obtainable at the moment; and the Committee ought to insist that in a gigantic scheme like this, which is completely upsetting local finances, there should be revision at the end of two years. I would like the right hon. Gentleman to tell us whether it is not the fact that once the formula is fully applied, of the West Riding authorities, 125 in number, no less than 84 will find themselves with an increase in rates. If that is the case, merely to extend these periods by two years from 15 years to 17, in no way removes the general danger and we ought to insist upon revision taking place at the earliest possible moment.
§ Sir K. WOODI do not propose to address myself to the particular calculations in the area specified by the hon. 265 Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams). As far as I can recollect, they are set forth in the White Paper. If, however, they are not, perhaps the hon. Gentleman will address a question to me in the House about it. I am not to be taken as accepting in any way the suggestion which has been made by the hon. Member as to the particular figures in that locality, but I invite him to look at the White Paper, and, if there is not sufficient information, to address a question to me. I propose to address myself to the Amendment to the proposed Amendment which is before the Committee. Two objections can be advanced to the course suggested, one from the point of view of the scheme itself, and another from a practical point of view which I hope will commend itself to the Committee. The first objection is on the merits of inserting two as against three. Two years would obviously be too soon for any revision to be made or any experience to be gained in a matter of this kind. That is why a period of three years has been fixed and not a shorter period.
The next objection, which is a more practicable one, and which does not go so much into the merits as the first, is that we have come to an agreement in this matter with the local authorities concerned. I should have thought that hon. Members opposite would have been very pleased that we have been able to come to an agreement with the local authorities. Only a short time ago I was hearing from hon. Members opposite how we ought to pay attention to the request of local authorities, and how they had expert advisers; and I remember how readily Members of the Opposition availed themselves of reports, which were out of date at the time, which were furnished by the expert advisers of local authorities, and how it was urged that we ought to pay attention to them. Here we are this evening with an agreement with the local authorities on this matter, and we ought to be receiving the congratulations of hon. Members opposite on coming to this very happy solution of the matter. I am sure that hon. Gentlemen opposite will think it very undesirable on the part of the Government to depart from the agreement that they have arrived at, simply because hon. Members, no doubt with the very best intentions, think that two years ought to be inserted instead 266 of three. The Government had better maintain the agreement at which they have arrived, and, however powerful may have been the arguments that have been adduced by hon. Members opposite, we must maintain the very happy solution that has been arrived at between the Government and the local authorities. By that means, we should be meeting the wishes of hon. Gentlemen opposite, who in previous discussions have been so anxious to help the local authorities.
§ Mr. LANSBURYThe right hon. Gentleman is a solicitor, and he knows that any arrangement or any agreement made under duress is not considered binding on the party that has been coerced into making that agreement. I can understand the right hon. Gentleman's hilarity, because he is able to get away with it so confidently with the docile majority that without any discussion will march into the Lobby to support him. He knows that local authorities have accepted this in default of anything better. The Government simply gave them no option but to agree, but happily we are not in that position. We are in the position of being able to make our voices heard for justice in these matters. If this business is not revised within three years, districts like the waterside areas in London will suffer very much. One very big district has lost at least £60,000 of rateable value, and it is on the reduced figure that the amount which the borough concerned will receive will be calculated. In one respect it is quite certain that that business will be rectified during the next year, or probably earlier, because the docks are being reconstructed, and instead of losing money, they will be making a profit within about a year's time.
Under this de-rating scheme, however, the boroughs in which they are situated will not be able to get any more than one-quarter of the value of the rates they would otherwise be able to obtain. It is exactly the same in regard to other empty property. When that comes into occupation, if it is taken for productive industries, for three years the people occupying those premises will pay only one-quarter of the rates, and the local authorities will not get the benefit of the increase in trade in a higher rateable value. The Government will take no account of it and the Exchequer will give no grant at all. The ratepayers will have been robbed of that amount of rateable 267 value, and the income derivable from it during this period of three years. Although this is a matter of great amusement to the right hon. Gentleman, his amusement does not get rid of the bare concrete fact that for three years this kind of district, which needs the money very much, will have to go without it.
There is the further fact that at the back of the minds of those who framed this scheme is the idea that the needs in these districts are stabilised, and that for three years there will be no new needs arising. Everybody who knows anything about social conditions in industrial centres, whether those centres be prosperous or the reverse, knows of the increasing need for social services, but under this scheme of stabilisation the local authorities who need relief most will be penalised in two ways. In the first place they will lose the value of the new properties coming into rating—or at any rate they will lose three-parts of it; and, in addition, with a lower rateable value, the unhappy people who live in small houses will be rated more heavily because of the increased cost of the social services. I think that is a scandalous thing, especially seeing that we are told that this is a Bill to relieve the necessity of people living in necessitous areas. Neither the right hon. Gentleman nor his chief face the facts at all. They make speeches of varying degrees of efficiency and ability, but when we confront them with concrete facts they do not answer them. I respectfully ask the right hon. Gentleman to tell me now why the East End boroughs of London, as well as other districts, should be penalised in this manner?
§ 9.0 p.m.
§ Mr. COVEI think the right hon. Gentleman said he has come to an agreement with the local authorities, but he has not satisfied this Committee as to the effect of the new concession on the actual moneys to be received by local authorities. I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman to face up to the issues that are involved and to put one or two specific questions to him. Is it not a fact that at the end of the three-year period the revision of the ratio will be a revision on an aggregate total basis for the whole of the country, and not a revision of each individual authority? I think that is an important question. Is 268 it not the fact that at the end of the three years, even under the Government scheme, authorities may find themselves in this position?—I am putting this in a theoretical manner, but it is none the less true. Supposing half the authorities spend £1,000,000 extra during this period, and one half of the authorities save £1,000,000, what increase of money will go into the national pool? In other words, is it not a fact that at the end of the three-year period the money that a progressive authority will have expended out of its rates will be offset by the reduced expenditure of a reactionary authority, and therefore the progressive authority, even with a revision of the ratio at the end of three years, will have spent sums of money out of the rates which will not bring any increased amount into the General Exchequer Contribution Fund? I wish to know from the Parliamentary Secretary whether that is so or not, and whether progressive authorities may not therefore find themselves tied to reactionary ones. Is it not a fact that even when the ratio is revised at the end of the period of three years the revision will have no relation at all to the expenditure? [Interruption.] I am trying to put rather difficult points, which I think are quite relevant to this business. If the right hon. Gentleman is getting an answer to them I am glad—if he can get an answer. Is it not a fact that during this period of three years not only will the rate expenditure upon health and other services be taken into account for the revision of the ratio, but that the rate-borne expenditure on education will also be taken into account? I want to know that definitely from the Parliamentary Secretary, and I want to tell him that it is no laughing matter as far as local authorities are concerned. [Interruption.] I am asking whether the rate-borne expenditure on education will be taken into account in the revision of this ratio at the end of three years, and that the grant part of it will be kept out of the account? If that is so, do not these facts arise at the end of the three years or of the four years— that an increase in rate-borne expenditure upon education may attract a greater sum into the general Exchequer fund, but that not one penny of the money that the rate expenditure attracts 269 into the fund will go into relief of the education rate, and that the education rate will not be revised at the end of this period of three years?
I have seen the figures applied to the county of Glamorganshire, if I may give an illustration. It is a case showing how serious a matter this is for education. I have seen the figures for Glamorganshire as worked out by a competent authority for the two years 1926 and 1927. The general county rate went down from 20s. 10d. to 9s. and the education rate went up from 3s. (3d. to 5s. 8d. The police rate, which is a special rate, went up from 9d. to about 1s. 1d. or 1s. lid. Am I not right in saying that in areas like Glamorganshire the education rate is levied as a special rate, and that not one penny from the general Exchequer contribution will go in aid of a special rate, but will go in aid of the general county rate? If that be so, we shall find that education as a service will get no compensation out of the general Exchequer contribution, and that as the money for it will be raised on a restricted rateable area the rates will be driven up in every village throughout this country. The right hon. Gentleman may shake his head, but these figures have been examined by competent authorities, and he cannot get away from this—that even at the end of three years there is no guarantee that the amount spent in aid of education, even with a restricted rateable area, will receive any consideration whatever. As a matter of fact, I say quite definitely that even for the other services, even as far as the amount from the general Exchequer contribution is concerned, that at the end of the three years no authority can guarantee that it will get one penny more of increased grant, even though it has increased its expenditure out of the rates. This is so for the simple and obvious reason that at the end of three years the money is not distributed on the basis of expenditure, but on what has been called the basis of need. Therefore, the formula at the end of three years has not the remotest connection with any expenditure of the local authority on any services, including education. It is quite clear that progressive authorities will spend money and may attract more money into the general Exchequer contribution fund, and that money will be distributed 270 not among the authorities that have spent the money, but among the reactionary authorities in order that they may reduce their rates. That is the effect of the wonderful scheme proposed by the Government. It really means that a stagnation will take place in all our social services, and we shall get angry ratepayers saying: "My rates are going up owing to de-rating" because this proposed revision has no meaning whatever.
§ The CHAIRMANBut surely that would be the same if there was a revision at the end of two years?
§ Mr. COVEThat is so, Mr. Chairman, but we put down this Amendment to the proposed Amendment to see if we could get the whole thing revised. These questions are seriously agitating the people who we represent. I could give proof of my statement from the official organs of our education authorities, including the "Schoolmaster," which represents the National Union of Teachers and other bodies, as well as the "Times Educational Supplement," which cannot be accused of bias. I could produce evidence of an official kind representing all sides of education, expressing their deep concern about the future of our education service. Whether the Government proposal means three or five years, it is absolutely worthless, and it means that the rates are going to leap up very considerably next year. There is going to be a great outcry against certain services, and I want to know what relief will come to the ratepayers at the end of three years? Is it going to be real or merely mythical.
The Government themselves have taken the total figure of £180,000,000, and we have been told that out of that sum £45,000,000 will come out of the General Exchequer Contribution Fund and the ratio is one quarter. Will the Parliamentary Secretary tell us what difference the revision after three years will make to the amount lost by the authorities owing to this Bill? It is well known that the authorities will lose year by year under the quinquennial arrangement, and I want to know how much they will be saved by a revision at the end of three years. I think we ought to have these figures. We ought to know whether our social services are going to 271 be crippled by the financial schemes of the Government. I should like to provoke the right hon. Gentleman into giving us some actual figures as to what will happen to the total of the grants to be distributed among the various authorities and what will happen to individual authorities. Let us have these concrete figures, and then we can judge whether there is any substance in the revision at an earlier period than was previously provided for under the Government scheme.
§ Sir K. WOODI would remind the Committee that we are now simply considering an Amendment to reduce the first period from three to two years. My answer to the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Cove) is a perfectly general one, and it is that no alteration is being made with regard to that part of the Bill to which he has referred, and there is no intention of the Government to alter it in any way. We are meeting the wishes of the local authorities by making the period three years, and we are now discussing an Amendment which endeavours to make the period two years. The questions which have been put to me are really not material to this question at all, because the particular side of the Measure which has been criticised by the hon. Member opposite remains exactly as it was before. There may be people outside the House who pay attention to what the hon. Member for Wellingborough has said—
§ Mr. STEPHENGive us the figures.
§ Sir K. WOODWhen the hon. Member for Wellingborough peruses his speech, I do not think that on reflection he will desire to repeat some of the assertions which he has made, because they have been answered time and again by the President of the Board of Education and the Minister of Health. I will simply say that obviously rate-borne expenditure of all kinds, including education, will be taken into account, but the grant in respect of education will be excluded.
§ Therefore, the Education Grant will not be affected in any way at all. I ask the hon. Member for Wellingborough, if he wants to advance the interest of education, to give a legitimate and fair account of this Measure so far as education is concerned. As regards the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), he said what a bad thing it would be to have new factories in his district because it would be a hardship if they had to provide new services. I have been associated with London and its administration for many years, and I am sure anyone would be greatly surprised to hear of a new factory being erected within half-a-mile of Poplar.
§ The CHAIRMANThe Committee is now getting rather far from the Amendment under discussion. I would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman might perhaps defer these remarks until this and the following Amendments to the proposed Amendment have been disposed of, when the Rules of Order will not be so tight.
§ Sir K. WOODI was not anxious further to inflict myself on the Committee, and I am very willing to follow your suggestion and wait until the main Amendment is discussed.
§ Mr. CECIL WILSONIn his earlier speech the right hon. Gentleman laid great stress on the fact that the local authorities had been satisfied. The question put by my hon. friend was, however, as to whether they are going to be dealt with on the basis of the aggregate guarantee or on the basis of the original period, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give us some reply to that question.
§ The CHAIRMANThat is just one of the points which might be raised on the Amendment as a whole.
§ Question put, "That the word 'three' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 177; Noes, 112.
275| Division No. 111.] | AYES. | [9.17 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Balniel, Lord | Betterton, Henry B. |
| Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell | Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Brass, Captain W. |
| Allen, Sir J. Sandeman | Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Briscoe, Richard George |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Bennett, A. J. | Brittain, Sir Harry |
| Astor, viscountess | Berry, Sir George | Brocklebank, C. E. R. |
| Atkinson, C. | Bethel, A. | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen-H. C.(Berks, Nswb'y) | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Carver. Major W. H. | Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henlsy) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Cassels, J. D. | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Hills, Major John Waller | Russell, Alexander west (Tynemouth) |
| Christie, J. A. | Hilton, Cecil | Salmon, Major I. |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Clayton, G. C. | Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N). | Sandon, Lord |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Hurst, Gerald B. | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby) |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Sinclair, Col. T.(Queen's, Univ., Belfast) |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Iveagh, Countess of | Skelton, A N. |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Jones, Sir G.W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Smith. R. W. (Aberd'n & Kine'dlne, C.) |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) | King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Lamb. J. O. | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Lumiey, L. R. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Strealfelid, Captain S. R. |
| Dixey, A. C. | Macintyre, Ian | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Drewe, C. | Macquisten, F. A. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Edwards, John H. (Accrington) | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| England, Colonel A. | Malone, Major P. B. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Tichfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Falie, Sir Bertram G. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Forestler-Walker, Sir L. | Meyer, Sir Frank | Waddington. R. |
| Forrest, W. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Ward. Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Monsell, Eyres Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Nelson, Sir Frank | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Gauit, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Nuttall, Ellis | Wells, S. R. |
| Gilmour. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Oakley, T. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Son, Sir Park | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Withers, John James |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Penny, Frederick George | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Perring, Sir William George | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Hacking, Douglas H. | Peto, G. (Somerset, Fromo) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Pilcher, G. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Harland, A. | Radford, E. A. | |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Raine, Sir Walter | TELLERS FOR THE AYES. |
| Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Ramsden, E. | Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain |
| Margesson. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Kelly, W. T. |
| Adamson. W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Fenby, T. D. | Kennedy, T. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Gardner, J. P. | Lansbury, George |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Gibbins, Joseph | Lawrence, Susan |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Gillett, George M. | Lawson, John James |
| Barnes, A. | Greenall, T. | Lee, F. |
| Batey, Joseph | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Lindley, F. W. |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Grenfell, D. R- (Glamorgan) | Lowth, T. |
| Bellamy, A. | Griffith, F. Kingsley | Lunn, William |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Grundy, T. W. | Mackinder, W. |
| Broad, F. A. | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) |
| Bromfield, William | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) | MacNeill-Weir, L. |
| Bromley, J. | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) |
| Buchanan, G. | Hardle, George D. | March, S. |
| Cape, Thomas | Hayday, Arthur | Mosley, Sir Oswald |
| Charleton, H. C. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Naylor, T. E. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Hirst, G. H. | Oliver, George Harold |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Owen, Major G. |
| Connolly, M. | Hore-Bellsba, Leslie | Palin, John Henry |
| Cove, W. G. | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfleid) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Ponsonby, Arthur |
| Dennison, R. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Potts, John S. |
| Duncan, C. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Purceil, A. A. |
| Edge, Sir William | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) | Riley, Ben |
| Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) | Stephen, Campbell | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Robinson, W. C. (Yorks. W. R., Elland) | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) | Wilkinson, Ellen C, |
| Scrymgeour, E. | Sullivan, J. | Williams, C. p. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Scurr, John | Sutton, J. E. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Sexton, James | Taylor, R. A. | Williams, Dr J. H (Llanelly) |
| Shinwell, E. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Thurtle, Ernest | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Slesser, Sir Henry H. | Tinker, John Joseph | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Smith, Ban (Bermondsey, Rotherh'the) | Tomlinson, R. P. | Windsor, Walter |
| Smith, Rennie (Penistone) | Townend, A. E. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip | Viant, S. P. | |
| Stamford, T. W. | Wellock, Wilfred | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. Hayes and Mr. Paling. |
§ Miss LAWRENCEI beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 3, after the word "first," to insert the words, "and on any subsequent."
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 113; Noes, 182.
277| Division No. 112.] | AYES. | [9.27 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Riley, Ben |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hardie, George D. | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Hayday, Arthur | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Scurr, John |
| Barnes, A. | Hirst, G. H. | Sexton. James |
| Batey, Joseph | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Shinwell, E. |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Bellamy, A. | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Briant, Frank | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Broad, F. A. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Bromfield, William | Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Bromley, J. | Kelly, W. T. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Buchanan, G. | Kennedy, T. | Sullivan, J. |
| Cape, Thomas | Lansbury, George | Sutton, J. E. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Lawrence, Susan | Taylor, R. A. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lawson, John James | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Lee, F. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Connolly, M. | Lindley, F. W. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Cove, W. G. | Lowth, T. | Tomilnson, R. P. |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Lunn, William | Townend, A. E. |
| Dennison, R. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Viant, S. P. |
| Duncan, C. | Mackinder, W. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Edge, Sir William | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelity) | MacNeill-Weir, L. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Fenby, T. D. | March, S. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Gardner, J. P. | Mosley, Sir Oswald | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Naylor, T. E. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Gillett, George M. | Oliver, George Harold | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Owen, Major G. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Greenall, I. | Palin, John Henry | Windsor, Walter |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Ponsonby, Arthur | |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Potts, John S. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Purcell, A. A. | Mr. Paling and Mr. Hayes. |
| Grundy, T. W. | Richardson, R. (Houghton le-Spring) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Brass, Captain W. | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. |
| Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Briscoe, Richard George | Cockerill, Brig-General Sir George |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Brittain, Sir Harry | Cohen, Major J. Brunel |
| Allen, Sir J. Sandeman | Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Conway, Sir W. Martin |
| Astor, Viscountess | Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Cope, Major Sir William |
| Atkinson, C. | Carver, Major W. H. | Craig. Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) |
| Balniel, Lord | Cassels, J. D. | Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) |
| Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell | Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) |
| Barnett Major Sir Richard | Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro) |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Dalkeith, Earl of |
| Bennett, A. J. | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cireneester) |
| Berry, Sir George | Christie, J. A. | Davies, Dr. Vernon |
| Bethel, A. | Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Dean, Arthur Wellesley |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Clayton, G. C. | Dixey, A. C |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Cobb, Sir Cyril | Drewe, C. |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Lamb, J. Q. | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby) |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| England, Colonel A. | Luce, Maj.-Gen, Sir Richard Harman | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Lumley, L. R. | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ. Belfast) |
| Falls, Sir Bertram G. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Skelton, A. N. |
| Forestler-Walker, Sir L. | MacDonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
| Forrest, W. | Macintyre, I. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.) |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Macquisten, F. A. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Foxcrott, Captain C. T. | Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Malone, Major P. B. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Ganzoni, Sir John. | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Meyer, Sir Frank | Streatfelid, Captain S. R. |
| Golf, Sir Park | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Sugden, Sir Wilfred |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Tasker, R. Inigo. |
| Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Hacking, Douglas H. | Nelson, Sir Frank | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Harland, A. | Nuttall, Ellis | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Oakley, T. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Waddington, R. |
| Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonal C. M. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Perring, Sir William George | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frame) | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Heneage, Lieut-Colonel Arthur P. | Pitcher, G. | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Radford, E. A. | Wavland, Sir William A. |
| Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Raine, Sir Walter | Wells, S. R. |
| Hills, Major John Waller | Ramsden, E. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Hilton, Cecil | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Reid, D. D. (County Down) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U | Withers, John James |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell | Womersley, W. J. |
| Hurst, Gerald B. | Ropner, Major L. | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Illffe, Sir Edward M. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. | Wragg, Herbert |
| Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Iveagh, Countess of | Salmon, Major I. | |
| Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Sandeman, N. Stewart | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Sanders, Sir Robert A. | Captain Margesson and Mr. Penny. |
| King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Sandon, Lord |
Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
§ Mr. ERNEST EVANSI beg to move, in page 55, line 25, after the word "rates," to insert the words "in each year."
The Amendment which I now move is the first of a series of Amendments, the object of which is quite clear from the wording. Put shortly the position is this. Many local authorities entertain a fear that the putting into operation of the scheme of this Bill may involve them in very serious consequences, and all those who are acquainted with local government will appreciate that at the present moment local authorities only budget for one year. It is as much, perhaps, as can be expected of them. It is a matter that seriously affects many aspects of public service. Let me use as an illustration the question of expenditure on education. This is perhaps not affected by the Clause, but it is a fair illustration. Those who are 278 interested in educational activity have been insisting for some time that local education authorities, instead of preparing a programme for one year, should try to look ahead and visualise what the needs are likely to be in two or three or five years' time. When that scheme is put forward, the objection is naturally taken by the local authorities that it is very difficult for them to do that, because they do not know exactly what their position will be at the end of the period. That difficulty will be enhanced by the provisions of this Bill. Local authorities are very concerned as to what their position will be when this scheme comes into full operation, and these Amendments are designed to put local authorities in a position, at the end of each financial year, to form a better idea as to what their position is and what it is likely to be in the coming year and in future years.
The Amendment says that the loss of rates which any authority will suffer under the provisions of the Bill shall be 279 calculated in each year. That would mean that at the end of each financial year the local authority would have a definite, reliable statement of the losses in the rates which the operations of this Bill had meant to them in the particular year with which they were dealing and, when they have that information, they will naturally be in a much better position to budget for future programmes. There is nothing revolutionary or alarming about it, but it is a matter of great importance and great assistance to those engaged in local government work. The Bill attempts to stabilise, or stereotype, the losses in rates that local authorities are likely to suffer. Some lesson may be derived from similar attempts to put a similar principle into operation. The Agricultural Rates Act, 1896, in effect proceeded upon the same basis. It stereotyped losses that were likely to accrue to local authorities by reason of the relief granted to certain portions of the population under that Act. But experience shows that the population suffered not from the calculated or stereotyped loss that was estimated by those who promoted that Act, but it involved a consequent burden upon the ratepayers amounting to about £5,000,000. If that is true of a comparatively small thing like the Agricultural Bates Act it will probably be emphasised and accentuated to a very large degree by an Act of these proportions. That is a practical illustration which gives support to the fears entertained by local authorities, and as the principle seems to me to be very natural and fair and one likely to be beneficial to local activities, I hope the Government will see their way to accept the Amendment.
§ Mr. STEPHENI support the Amendment in order to put a point to the Parliamentary Secretary which has not been made very clear previously. There may be an increase in educational expenditure. The total rate-borne expenditure is taken into account in deciding what the Exchequer grant is going to be. Supposing you have an additional expenditure of £2,000,000. It goes into the total rate-borne expenditure, the Exchequer grant is calculated and it would seem that all is well. But education gets nothing from the pool with regard to the additional expenditure.
280 The Parliamentary Secretary says it is all right because education is dealt with on a percentage basis and the Exchequer contributes on a fifty-fifty basis. The State pays £1,000,000 but the other £1,000,000 remains, which has to be found by the rating authority, and the rating authority would have a rateable value of only a quarter, so that the local authority would have to find four times the rate for this £1,000,000 of extra expenditure. It is this point that we should like the Minister to appreciate. You would have a general outcry with regard to this tremendous increase of expenditure in connection with education. Consequently, education will be put into a very unfortunate position. This Amendment would provide against this happening. It would mean that the difference with regard to the educational expenditure would be met out of the Exchequer. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health will at least deal with the point as to how education is going to be affected in regard to the fact that it does not take anything out of the general fund. and that consequently there will be a large increase of rate, because the rateable value in an area has been reduced by the general derating following the 75 per cent. reduction in respect of hereditaments, and so on. I hope that I have made my point clear to the Minister and that we may now get the figures for which we asked on the last Amendment but did not receive.
§ Mr. COVEI support this Amendment because it has very great importance as far as education is concerned. Now that the Parliamentary Secretary has had a chance of consulting his experts, cannot we have on this Amendment something definite and concrete from the Government? The first thing to which I want to direct attention is Clause 87 of this Bill in relation to this point. It has a very material and direct bearing upon it. Clause 87 provides that all sums received by a county council by way of general or additional Exchequer grant or of proceeds of local taxation licences shall be applicable to general county purposes. That means that all the money coming out of the general Exchequer fund will be paid into the general county purposes fund. This further implies that not one penny that will come from the general 281 Exchequer under this scheme will go in compensation for loss of rates on account of education. The whole burden of education will have to be borne by a restricted rateable field, subject to the strict education grant. Therefore, under the scheme of the Government you are going to have large chunks of rateable value taken away from the education rate without any compensation being provided.
I have some figures here. You cannot discuss this question without figures. [Interruption.] I would like the right hon. Gentleman to tackle this tiling seriously, and not from a mere Conservative partisan point of view. If he will examine it, he will find that this scheme is going to strike a mortal blow at education. Cornwall will lose 24 per cent. through de-rating, Devon 18 per cent., the West Riding of Yorkshire 25 per cent., and Durham 25 per cent. I can give a number of figures. In some cases there will be a loss of 40 per cent. of rateable value owing to de-rating. It means that when this 25 per cent., 30 per cent., or 40 per cent. has gone out of. the rate income of education authorities, not one penny will come back in the form of grant. Let us see what that means further. Supposing that in a particular area the existing rate for education is 3s. in the £ If that authority loses through de-rating 20 per cent. of its rateable value, then, in order to get the same amount of money out of rates from this restricted rateable value, the rate will be raised from 3s. to 3s. 9d. If the present rate is 3s. and the area is de-rated to the extent of 25 per cent. of the rateable value, then the rate will be 4s. in the £ in order to give the authority the same amount of money. In the case of an area de-rated to the extent of 30 per cent., the rate will have to be 4s. 3½d. in order to enable the authority to have the same amount of income. The education authorities will therefore find themselves in a very serious situation.
I have previously given figures relating to the county of Glamorgan. I will give them again, because they clearly show that we are going to have the old economy stunt raised against education in particular. It is actually possible under this scheme to get a general reduction of the general rate, and at the same time to get an increase of the educa- 282 tion rate. Take Glamorganshire. Apply this scheme in 1926–27. What do you find? The county rate, including the equalised rate for Poor Law and highways, was, on that occasion, 10s. 10¼d. In respect of the services chargeable under the general county rate the rate was Is. 10½d., leaving the county rate, under the Government scheme, 9s. Look at the rate levied as a special county rate, in regard to which there is no compensation out of the general Exchequer fund. The rate in 1926–27 was 3s. 10d. Under the Government scheme the rate for elementary education would have meant an increase of 1s. 10d. in the £, making a total rate of 5s. 8d. in the £. It is quite obvious, therefore, that this scheme, which does not provide any compensation for loss of rate, is going to impose a tremendous burden upon the education rate and upon education authorities. Let me give one or two other figures which have been worked out. If the Parliamentary Secretary, instead of winking, would get up and tell us the simple, plain truth about the intentions of the Government, and treat this matter seriously, tell us quite frankly what are the intentions of the Government, I am sure he would have to say that the Government scheme rings the death-knell of Part III education authorities up and down the country; that it will be quite impossible for these Part III authorities, these necessitous areas, to carry on their education services under the scheme of the Government.
I have some figures in respect of South Wales authorities which have been worked out by a competent authority. In Barry, in 1926–27, there was a rate of 3s. 2½d. for elementary education. The loss through de-rating there is 33 per cent. of the rateable value. In order to get the same amount of money, the education rate would have to be increased from 3s. 2½d to 4s. 10d., an increase of Is. 7½d. This would be necessary to make up the loss due to the de-rating of 33 per cent. of its property. In Mountain Ash, the education rate is 6s. 5d. There, the local authority will lose 35 per cent. of their rateable value through de-rating and the education rate of 6s. 5d. will have to be increased, to make up for the loss on account of de-rating, to the extent of 3s. 6d., making a total education rate, on account of de-rating pure and simple, of 9s. l1d. In Neath, the educa- 283 tion rate of 3s. 6d. will become 4s. 4d.; in Rhondda, the education rate of 5e. 6½d. will be increased to 6s. 8d.; in Port Talbot the education rate of 2s. l1d. will be increased to 4s. 1d., and in other places where the education rates are Is. l¼d. and Is. l¾d. they will be increased to 3s. 6d., to make up for the loss of rates through the process of de-rating.
I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary this question—is it not the deliberate and calculated intention behind all the intricacies of this Bill not only to stabilise expenditure upon the health services but to stabilise expenditure also upon a service which is supposed to be outside the scheme, namely, the service of education? The simple elementary fact of de-rating and the taking out of the rateable value of 75 per cent. on account of industry and 100 per cent. in case of agriculture, makes it impossible for educational progress to be made in this country. Every new development, not new in the sense of being imposed by an Act of Parliament but in the sense of a natural increase in the expenditure of the authority on its existing educational service, will have to be borne on the restricted rateable value and will necessarily, therefore, send up the rates for education in a very marked degree. An authority which now employs, say, 100 teachers if it employs 110 teachers next year on account of the normal expansion of population will have to meet that increased expenditure upon this restricted rateable value, and it will have to be borne entirely, and for ever so far as this scheme is concerned, by the ratepayers in the area. The working men and the small shopkeepers are the people who will have to bear the burden of this expansion of the education service.
In view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman and his Department can get to know what the education authorities are thinking, they must know that the education authorities have expressed great anxiety about the whole future of education. Their official organ has given expression to that fear, and a suggestion has been made that a deputation should meet the Minister and discuss the position. I would ask the right hon Gentleman to tell us now whether, if he is not going to give a substitution for the loss 284 of rates, he is going to make any adjustment in the education giants. The President of the Board of Education gave a perky and supercilious reply, in his usual style, which satisfied nobody, and the comment by the education authorities and others interested in education have arisen directly out of his reply. They are quite unsatisfied about the whole position. Now, the Minister has a chance to say, on this Amendment. what he is going to do, and I hope that he will seriously face the position in which the local authorities will find themselves, and say whether he cannot give some compensatory grants in place of the tremendous loss that will occur, especially to Part III authorities, on account of de-rating.
§ 10.0 p.m.
§ Sir K. WOODNo one will be more surprised than the hon. Member who moved the Amendment at the subsequent discussion which has arisen. When he moved his Amendment I am sure that he had no idea that in connection with this particular matter there would be produced from the fertile brains of two hon. Members opposite who have followed him, the arguments which they have adduced on the question of education. The hon. Member opposite who has spoken, and who is now, I understand, a distinguished ornament of the Bar, has perhaps not done due credit to that learned profession by studying the Amendment.
§ Mr. BUCHANANI think the right hon. Gentleman is mistaken about the Bar. Which bar? May I ask the right hon. Gentleman exactly which bar he means? I do not know which bar he means.
§ Sir K. WOODI will leave that to the hon. Member. The Amendment which was moved by the hon. Member for the University of Wales (Mr. E. Evans) proposes that in the payment of the general Exchequer contribution, an amount equal to the total loss on account of rates to the counties and county boroughs shall be paid each year. How on this Amendment a question in relation to education can be brought in, I cannot understand. Whatever the position may be in relation to education—the President of the Board of Education has stated the position very fully—that position remains whether the amount payable is paid in accordance 285 with the scheme in the Bill or, as the hon. Member for the Welsh University-desires to make it, each year. I propose to address myself to the Amendment and to endeavour to satisfy the Committee that that would be a very undesirable course to adopt.
The Committee may remember that we discussed this matter to a considerable extent upon the Second Reading of the Bill, and I think the hon. Member, on reflection, will not desire to persist in the Amendment. The Amendment involves a payment from the Exchequer to the local authorities of a certain proportion of their rates every year. Whatever those rates might be the Exchequer would, have to make its contribution, and they would have so far as the Amendment is concerned no means of having any chock with respect to the contribution from the 'Stale. Whatever might be the proper proportion of the rate expenditure involved, the Exchequer would have to send a cheque for the amount to the particular local authority. Such a course would be an impossible one for any Exchequer to admit for a moment. If anything of that kind was to be adopted it could only be made a little more reasonable by giving very wide powers to the Exchequer and the Treasury to cheek the expenditure of the local authorities, and to exercise some control over them which, no doubt, in the long run, would remove, practically altogether, responsibility from the local authorities to the National Exchequer. I think that is a course which no one would desire to press upon the Committee. It is true that, in the first instance, ideas such as these were put forward by certain authorities, but they are not being persisted in to-day by the local authorities.
The hon. Member said that the local authorities would be in a difficulty as to how they should budget, and he thought that under his suggestion they would be in a much better position to know where they stood year by year. I would remind
§ the hon. Member that the local authorities will be able to budget for a particular period. They will know exactly the amount they will receive and also the additional sums they are going to receive from the Exchequer. They will know that they are going to get a definite additional amount, and will be in a much better position in that respect than under the plan proposed by the Amendment. They will be able to survey their requirements for the next three years, a most desirable position for local authorities; they will know approximately the sums of money they will receive and be. able to survey the various services which they may desire to extend. They will be able to map out their programme for the next three years for a particular service. As regards that aspect of the matter, the hon. Member need have no anxiety. Finally, let me say this; that inasmuch as my right hon. Friend has come to an agreement with the Association of Local Authorities on this matter, the hon. Member, I know, will be the last person to desire that it should be torn up or deviated from. In these circumstances, and particularly on account of the undesirable nature of the Amendment from the point of view of the finances and position of local authorities, I suggest that he should not press the matter on the Committee.
§ Mr. KELLYAre we to have no reply to the figures which have been given by my two hon. Friends behind me in regard to the question of education?
§ Sir K. WOODThat is really a matter which should be debated on Clause 87 of the Bill, where we are dealing with Part III authorities. Obviously that is the correct place to deal with them. This is a question as to whether we should pay the loss of rates to local authorities each year or over a period of years.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided; Ayes, 125; Noes, 193.
289| Division No. 113.] | AYES. | [10.9 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Barnes, A. | Broad, F. A. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Batey, Joseph | Bromfield, William |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Bellamy, A. | Bromley, J. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Bondfield, Margaret | Buchanan, G. |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Cape, Thomas |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillary) | Briant, Frank | Charleton, H. C. |
| Cluse, W.S. | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives) |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Connolly, M. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Cove, W. G. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) | Scurr, John |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Kelly, W. T. | Sexton, James |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Kennedy, T. | Shinwell, E. |
| Dennison, R. | Lansbury, George | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Duncan, C. | Lawrence, Susan | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Edge, Sir William | Lawson, John James | Smith, Rennle (Penistone) |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Lee, F. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Lindley, F. W. | Stamford, T. W. |
| England, Colonel A. | Livingstone, A. M. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Longbottom, A. W. | Stewart, J (St. Rollox) |
| Forrest, W. | Lowth, T. | Strauss, E. A. |
| Gardner, J. P. | Lunn, William | Sullivan, J. |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Sutton, J. E. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Taylor, R. A. |
| Gillett, George M. | Mackinder, W. | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Greenall, T. | MacNeill-Weir, L. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Townend, A. E. |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | March, S. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley | Morris, R. H. | Viant, S. P. |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, pontypool) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Groves, T. | Mosley, Sir Oswald | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Grundy, T. W. | Naylor, T. E. | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Oliver, George Harold | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Palin, John Henry | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Hardle, George D. | Paling, W. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Hayday, Arthur | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercilffe) |
| Hayes, John Henry | Ponsonby, Arthur | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Potts, John S. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hirst, G. H. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring] | |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Riley, Ben | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) | Mr. Fenby and Major Owen. |
| Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Robinson, W. C.(Yorks, W. R., Elland) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) | Henn, Sir Sydney H. |
| Alnsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) | Hills, Major John Walter |
| Allen, Sir J. Sandeman | Dalkeith, Earl of | Hilton, Cecil |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Davies, Dr. Vernon | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Dlxey, A. C. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) |
| Astor, Viscountess | Drewe, C. | Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis |
| Atkinson, C. | Eden, Captain Anthony | Hurst, Gerald B. |
| Balniel, Lord | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Iilffe, Sir Edward M. |
| Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Ellis, R. G. | Iveagh, Countess of |
| Bennett A. J. | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-S-M.) | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) |
| Bethel, A. | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Lamb, J. Q. |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) |
| Brass, Captain W. | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Lumley, L. R. |
| Brocklehank, C. E. R. | Gadle, Lieut. Colonel Anthony | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks,Newb'y) | Ganzoni, Sir John | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Gates, Percy | Macintyre, Ian |
| Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Gault, Lieut-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Macquisten, F. A. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Maitland. A. (Kent, Faversham) |
| Cassels, J. D. | Goff, Sir Park | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. steel- |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Gower, Sir Robert | Makins, Brigadier-General E. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Malone, Major P. B. |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn |
| Cazalet, Captain victor A. | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Gulnness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Meyer, Sir Frank |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Hacking, Douglas H. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) |
| Christie, J. A. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Harland, A. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive |
| Clayton, G. C. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hartington, Marquess of | Nelson, Sir Frank |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Oakley, T. |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Percy, Lard Eustace (Hastings) |
| Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley | Titchfield, Major the Marquees of |
| Perring, Sir William George | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Sinclair, Col.T. (Queen's Univ., Belf'st.) | Waddington, R. |
| Pilcher, G. | Skelton, A. N. | Ward, Lt.-Col.A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Radford, E. A. | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Raine, Sir Walter | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.) | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Ramsden, E. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Rawson, Sir Cooper | Southby, Commander A. R. J. | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Reid, D. D. (County Down) | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. | Wells, S. R. |
| Rentoul, G. S. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) | Steel, Major Samuel Strang | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell | Stott, Lieut. Colonel W. H. | Withers, John James |
| Ropner, Major L. | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Salmon, Major I. | Tasker, R. Inigo | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Sandeman, N. Stewart | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Sanders, Sir Robert A. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Sandon, Lord | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell. | |
| Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie | Tinne, J. A. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. Penny and Captain Wallace. |
§ Miss LAWRENCEI beg to move, in page 55, line 25, at the end, to insert the words "calculated in the manner provided in this Section."
These words, if carried, will be followed by an Amendment which appears at the foot of page 298 of the Order Paper, in page 56, line 29, to leave out paragraph (a,) and to insert instead thereof the words
the Minister shall from time to time estimate, as respects each county and county borough, the deficiency which will arise in each half-year by reason of losses on account of rates, and, subject as hereinafter provided, the amount of that deficiency shall be taken to be the difference between the sum which the Minister estimates would have been raised by these rates if this Act had not passed and the sum which the Minister estimates will be so raised under the foregoing provisions of this Act"—Then the Amendment goes on to stipulate that that sum, ascertained every half-year, shall be returned to every county and county borough. Our desire was to include all local authorities, and the only reason why the Amendment does not include all local authorities is that the shape of the Clause imposes certain limits of order. The words I have read are taken word by word from the Agricultural Rates Act of 1923, which was passed by a Conservative Government and has worked with smoothness and satisfaction since its inauguration. It is a simple and straightforward plan enough. The Minister of Health has promised to bring his scheme back to Parliament, or rather he has pledged Parliament to reconsider the matter so that all the workings of the blessed formula may be brought to the light of day, and Parliament may again decide on it. For all 290 practical purposes the Minister is simply adopting a provisional and stop-gap Measure and, if hon. Members opposite only consider the matter, they will see that, even if they do not look upon our scheme as a permanent settlement, it is a much easier, a much simpler and a more straightforward method of tiding over the period of experiment and inquiry and of seeing how this affects local authorities. It is at any rate a simple and clear proposal. Is the Measure before us simple or clear? I do not wish to repeat myself, but I would point out that the Government proposal in regard to the first three years simply means that every local authority will do very nicely, provided that its expenditure does not rise during that time, and provided that there is no great change in its rateable value. Should these two "ifs" be fulfilled, the local authorities are all right for the first period. But in regard to the next period there is a further complication because we do not know for successive years what the amount of the General Exchequer Contribution will be under the Minister's scheme. That depends upon the general total of rate-borne expenditure in the successive critical years.The first point I wish to make is that, depending as it does on the total expenditure, this proposal is extraordinarily unreassuring for each individual county, because the expenditure of many localities must rise above the average expenditure of the whole country. There are some localities whose expenditure, due to no fault of their own, will rise, while, perhaps, the average expenditure over the whole country remains fairly steady. When we come to the later years this 291 proposal may have even more fantastic effects. Rateable values may change in some districts very violently according to the course of trade and unemployment, and it will hardly be credited that on the formula part of the scheme, the factor which comes from unemployment is to vary with the general Exchequer contribution—the multiple for the unemployment factor is to depend in a certain proportion upon the proportion which the general Exchequer contribution in further years bears to the general Exchequer contribution in the first year.
The Parliamentary Secretary smiles, but if he turns to Page 110 of the Bill, to his Fourth Schedule, he will see that the appropriate multiple for the unemployment factor at the end of the seventh year is to be determined by the ratio which the general Exchequer contribution in the fixed grant period in question bears to the part thereof distributed in that fixed grant period under paragraph (b) of Sub-section (2) of Section 69 of the Act. You have then got to ascertain the ratio which the total amount of the general Exchequer contribution for the purpose of this grant period bears to the part thereof distributed in that fixed grant period under the said paragraph, and then the required number for multiplication is to be a number bearing the same proportion which the ratio ascertained under paragraph (i) of the rule bears to the ratio ascertained under paragraph (ii). The multiple of unemployment figure depends in this fantastic and remote manner on the amount of the general Exchequer contributions, which in their turn depend upon the general annual expenditure of the country. Take a district which is ravaged by unemployment and has a low rateable value. As soon as unemployment disappeared, the rateable value would go up, but under this scheme the unemployment figure depends not merely upon the unemployment figure of the district nor of the country. The weight given to the unemployment figure depends upon a ratio between the first Exchequer contribution and the subse-
§ quent annual rateable expenditure; and, to add to the fantastic and dreamlike character of the whole thing, you multiply the rateable value of the district by the multiple of unemployment, multiplied by a figure bearing the same relation to it as the two other figures I have mentioned. My time is short, but in two words, we propose a sensible and reasonable arrangement, which anybody can understand; the Minister proposes a farrago of nonsense, which no one understands.
Mr. CHAMBERLAINThe hon. Member has devoted a good deal more time to trying to make fun of the proposals of the Government than she has done to recommending her Amendment to the Committee. In the short time at my disposal, I will merely say that she must not assume, because certain phrases of the Bill are unintelligible to her, that they are to others. She said that this Amendment was a simple proposition. So it is. It is a simple proposition to wreck the whole scheme. What does this Amendment do? It takes out of the pool the whole amount of the loss of rates, which would reduce the pool by the sum of £24,000,000 or thereabouts. Of course, therefore, it would make it quite impossible to do what the Government desire to do in their carefully thought-out and carefully balanced scheme, and that is to provide for the distribution of this pool in such a way as to benefit the necessitous areas. There is the further objection to the proposal, which I think must be obvious to the Committee, that it would definitely place upon the Exchequer the necessity of finding a loss of rates the amount of which would depend on the valuation and on the figures which the local authorities returned. That would be impossible without control by the Exchequer, which I am sure the Committee would not sanction. Therefore, I must ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 101; Noes, 232.
295| Division No. 114.] | AYES. | [10.30 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff, Cannock) | Barnes, A. | Broad, F. A. |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Batey, Joseph | Bromfield, William |
| Ammon, Charles George | Bellamy, A. | Bromley, J. |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhamton, Bilston) | Bondfield, Margaret | Buchanan, G. |
| Caps, Thomas | Kennedy, T. | Sexton, James |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Shinwell, E. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lansbury, George | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Lawrence, Susan | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Connolly, M. | Lawson, John James | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Cove, W. G. | Lee, F. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Dennison, R. | Lindley, F. W. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Duncan, C. | Longbottom, A. W. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Gardner, J. P. | Lowth, T. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Lunn, William | Sullivan, J. |
| Gillett, George M. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Sutton, J. E. |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Win. (Edin., Cent.) | Mackinder, W. | Taylor, R. A. |
| Greenall, T. | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | MacNeill-Weir. L. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Townend, A. E. |
| Groves, T. | Mosley, Sir Oswald | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Grundy, T. W. | Naylor, T. E. | Viant, S. P. |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Oliver, George Harold | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Palin, John Henry | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Hardle, George D. | Paling, W. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Hayday, Arthur | Ponsonby, Arthur | Williams. Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) |
| Hayes, John Henry | Potts, John S. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffs) |
| Hirst, G. H. | Riley, Ben | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield). | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks. W. R., Elland) | |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Salter, Dr. Alfred | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Scrymgeour, E. | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Allen |
| Kelly, W. T. | Scurr, John | Parkinson. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Galnsbro) | Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd. Henley) |
| Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Dalkeith, Earl of | Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian |
| Albery, Irving James | Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Davies, Dr. Vernon | Henn, Sir Sydney H. |
| Allen, Sir J. Sandeman | Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Dixey, A. C. | Hills, Major John Waller |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Drewe, C. | Hilton, Cecil |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Eden, Captain Anthony | Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) |
| Astor, Viscountess | Edge, Sir William | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) |
| Atkinson, C. | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N) |
| Balniel, Lord | Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) |
| Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Ellis, R. G. | Hurst, Gerald B. |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | England, Colonel A. | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) |
| Bennett, A. J. | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Illffe, Sir Edward M. |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Erskine, James Maicolm Monteith | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. |
| Bethel, A. | Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Iveagh, Countess of |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Fairfax, Captain J. G. | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) |
| Brass, Captain W. | Falls, Sir Bertram G. | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) |
| Briant, Frank | Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Fenby, T. D. | Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Fermoy, Lord | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Fielden, E. B. | King, Commodore Henry Douglas |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Forestler-Walker, Sir L. | Lamb, J. Q. |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Forrest, W. | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) |
| Surney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Livingstone, A. M. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) |
| Cassels, J. D. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Lumley, L. R. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Galbraith, J. F. W. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Ganzoni, Sir John | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A | Gates, Percy | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Gault, Lieut.-Col, Andrew Hamilton | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Macintyre, Ian |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Goff, Sir Park | Macquisten, F. A. |
| Christle, J. A. | Gower, Sir Robert | Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- |
| Clayton, G. C. | Grant, Sir J. A. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Malone, Major P. B. |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Griffith, F. Kingsley | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Gulnness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd |
| Collox, Major Wm. Phillips | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Meyer, Sir Frank |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Hacking, Douglas H. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) |
| Cope, Major Sir William | Harland, A. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Harrison, G. J. C. | Moore, Sir Newton J. |
| Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Hartington, Marquess of | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Morris, R. H. |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph |
| Nelson, Sir Frank | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Salmon, Major I. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.) | Sandeman, N. Stewart | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Nuttall, Ellis | Sanders, Sir Robert A. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Oakley, T. | Sandon, Lord | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie | Waddington, R. |
| Omao, Sir Charles William C. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Owen, Major G. | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.( Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst) | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Skelton, A. N. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Perring, Sir William George | Smith, Leuis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.) | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Pilcher, G. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. | Wells, S. R. |
| Radford, E. A. | Southby, Commander A. R. J. | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Raine, Sir Walter | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Ramsden, E. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Rawson, Sir Cooper | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Reid, Capt. Cunningham(Warrington) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Reid, D. D. (County Down) | Steel, Major Samuel Strang | Withers, John James |
| Rentoul, G. S. | Storry-Deans, R. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Rhys, Hen. C. A. U. | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. | Womersley, W. J |
| Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) | Strauss, E. A. | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Ropner, Major L. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Runchman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives) | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) | |
| Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Captain Bowyer and Mr. Penny. |
§ It being after half-past Ten of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of 12th December, successively to put forthwith the Questions on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given and the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at half-past Ten of the Clock at this day's Sitting.
§ Amendments made:
§ In page 55, line 28, leave out the word "quinquennium," and insert instead thereof the words "fixed grant period."
§ In line 36, leave out the words "fourth year of the preceding quinquennium," and insert instead thereof the words "penultimate year of the preceding fixed grant period."
296§ In page 56, line 6, leave out the words "fourth year of that quinquennium," and insert instead thereof the words "penultimate year of that fixed grant period."
§
Leave out from the second word "the" in line 11, to the word "in," in line 14, and insert instead thereof the words:
penultimate year of the preceding fixed grant period a reference to the last year preceding the said penultimate year.
§ In line 20, leave out the words "three quinquennia" and insert instead thereof the words "four fixed grant periods."—[Mr. Chamberlain.]
§ Consequential Amendments made.
§ Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 220; Noes, 118.
299| Division No, 115.] | AYES. | [10.43 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Cope, Major Sir William |
| Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe) |
| Albery, Irving James | Burney, Lieut. Com. Charles D. | Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Carver, Major W. H. | Crookshank, Cot. C. de W. (Berwick) |
| Allen, Sir J. Sandeman | Cassels, J. D. | Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Dalkeith, Earl of |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Davies, Dr. Vernon |
| Astor, Viscountess | Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Dean, Arthur Wellesley |
| Atkinson, C. | Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Dlxey, A. C. |
| Balniel, Lord | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Drewe, C. |
| Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Eden, Captain Anthony |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Christie, J. A. | Edge, Sir William |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Edmondson, Major A. J. |
| Bennett, A. J. | Clayton, G. C. | Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Cobb, Sir Cyril | Elliot, Major Walter E. |
| Bethel, A. | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Ellis, R. G. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | England, Colonel A. |
| Brass, Captain W. | Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Colman, N. C. D. | Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Conway, Sir W. Martin | Fairfax, Captain J. G. |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Lamb, J. Q. | Sandeman, N. Stewart |
| Fanshawe, Captain G. D. | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Sanders, Sir Robert A |
| Fermoy, Lord | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Sandon, Lord |
| Fielden, E. B. | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Lumley, L. R. | Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie |
| Forrest, W. | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Foxcrott, Captain C. T. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Sinclair, Col.T. (Queen's Univ.,Belfst) |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Macdonald. R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Skelton, A. N. |
| Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Macintyre, Ian | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Macquisten, F. A. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.) |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Gates, Percy | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Malone, Major P. B. | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. |
| Goff, Sir Park | Manninaharn-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Gower, Sir Robert | Margesson, Captain D. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Grant, Sir J. A. | Meyer, Sir Frank | Storry-Deans, R. |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- | Stott, Lieut. -Colonel W. H. |
| Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Streatfeild, Captain S. R. |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Mcore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Hacking, Douglas H. | Morden, Col. W. Grant | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Harland, A. | Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Nelson, Sir Frank | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Hartington, Marquess of | Neville, Sir Reginald J. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Harvey, Majar S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. | Nuttall, Ellis | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henlsy) | Oakley, T. | Waddington, R. |
| Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Hills, Major John Waller | Perring, Sir William George | Watts, Sir Thomas |
| Hilton, Cecil | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) | Radford, E. A. | Wells, S. R. |
| Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Raine, Sir Walter | Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Ramsden, E. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whilteh'n) | Reid, Capt. Cunningham(Warrington) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis | Reid, D. D. (County Down) | Withers, John James |
| Hurst, Gerald B. | Rentoul, G. S. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Iveagh, Countess of | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Ropner, Major L. | Wragg, Herbert |
| Jonas, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich) |
| Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | |
| King, Commodore Henry Douglas | Salmon, Major I. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Captain Bowyer and Mr. Penny. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Gibbins, Joseph | Lansoury, George |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Gillett, George M. | Lawrence, Susan |
| Ammon, Charles George | Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Lawson, John James |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Greenall, T. | Lee, F. |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Greenwood, A. (Nelson end Colne) | Lindley, F. W. |
| Barnes, A. | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Longbottom, A. W. |
| Batey, Joseph | Griffith, F. Kingsley | Lowth, T. |
| Bellamy, A. | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Lunn, William |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Groves, T. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon.J. R.(Aberavon) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Grundy, T. W. | Mackinder, W. |
| Briant, Frank | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) |
| Broad, F. A. | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) | MacNeill-Weir, L. |
| Bromfield, William | Hardle, George D. | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) |
| Bromley, J. | Hayday, Arthur | Morris, R. H. |
| Buchanan, G. | Hayes, John Henry | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) |
| Cape, Thomas | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Mosley, Sir Oswald |
| Charleton, H. C. | Hirst, G. H. | Naylor, T. E. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Oliver, George Harold |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Owen, Major G. |
| Connolly, M. | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Palin, John Henry |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Ponsonby, Arthur |
| Dennison, R. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Potts, John S. |
| Duncan, C. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) | Riley, Ben |
| Fenby, T. D. | Kelly, W. T. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W.Bromwich) |
| Gardner, J. P. | Kennedy, T. | Robinson, W. C (Yorke, W. R., Elland) |
| Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives) | Stephen, Campbell | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Runciman, Rt Hon Walter | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Saklatvala, Shapurji | Strauss, E. A. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Salter, Dr. Alfred | Sullivan, Joseph | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Scrymgeour, E. | Sutton, J. E. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Scurr, John | Taylor, R. A. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Sexton, James | Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Shinwell, E. | Thurtle, Ernest | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Tinker, John Joseph | |
| Slesser, Sir Henry H. | Townend, A. E. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Smith, Rennie (Penistone) | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. |
| Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip | Viant, S. P. | Paling. |
| Stamford, T. W. | Wellock, Wilfred |