HC Deb 08 March 1928 vol 214 cc1386-90

Order for Second Reading read.

The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir William Joynson-Hicks)

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

We now pass from war to peace, and I hope the House will give a Second Reading unanimously to a Bill which will be of great advantage to the unfortunate lapwings and still more to the farmers. It is quite a small Bill. Lapwings are perhaps of all birds the best friends to the farming community, but for some time past there have been difficulties with regard to the protection of lapwings because of the desire on the part of some epicures to eat their very succulent eggs. So far as the birds themselves are concerned, they are very well protected now. In 43 counties of England and Wales out of a total of 62, the lapwing is completely protected now.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY

All the year round?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS

Yes, but in spite of the complete protection in those counties and partial protection in the others, there is still a decrease going on in the numbers of these very useful birds, and the opinion of all those interested in agriculture is that that is caused not by the destruction of the bird itself, but by the destruction of its eggs. That being so, while I am very sorry for the epicures——

Viscountess ASTOR

I am not!

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS

I think they can satisfy themselves with gull's eggs instead. I am afraid the only way of securing the real protection of these birds is to prohibit the taking or sale of their eggs. In these circumstances, this Bill prohibits between 14th March and 11th August, the sale of any lapwing for human consumption, and it prohibits altogether the sale for human consumption of the egg of the lapwing. I understand that the Bill received a unanimous vote in the other House, and I also understand, through the ordinary channels, that the Bill is received with great favour on all sides in this House as well. I will not detain the House any longer at this late hour, though, had I time, I should be delighted to talk at length on the habits of this useful bird.

Colonel APPLIN

Why is it called the lapwing, which is quite a country name for the green plover?

Mr. HARDIE

Why not the peewit?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS

I think "lapwing" is the word by which it is known throughout the country, and it is a good old English name.

Mr. BARR

It is also known as the green-crested lapwing.

Lt.-Commander KENWORTHY

While I welcome the Bill, after what the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Enfield (Col. Applin) has said, there should be a definition Clause in it. Not only is this bird called the green plover, but I have heard it in Yorkshire called the peewit, and the eggs of the lapwing might be taken by country lads under the impression that they were taking the eggs of the peewit, which they might not know was the same bird. If there be a total prohibition in 43 counties, why does not the Bill prohibit the sale of the birds or their eggs the whole year round? Why limit it to the period from the 14th March to the 11th August? Is it proposed to limit the importation of eggs from Norway and other countries? This country can do without them for consumption. If importation is not limited, you will have poachers and other unscrupulous persons selling the British lapwing's eggs and saying that they are Norwegian eggs. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that in the Plumage Bill we had to prohibit the importation of plumage altogether. I cannot understand what he said about the decrease of plovers. I thought that they were increasing, and it is very remarkable to see the numbers of them in the fields, and their great tameness and trust in man. I hope that in Committee the dates will be extended.

Mr. LAWSON

This subject tempts one to indulge in memories of the days when we were school boys and of the relations we had with these birds, but at this time of the night we are not going into a long discussion. I only rise to say that I am instructed from this side to welcome this Bill, and we can only hope that every facility will be given for its passage into law at an early date.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS

I thank the hon. Member for his welcome of the Bill. In reply to the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy), my information from the Ministry of Agriculture is that in the south and east parts of the country the lapwing is decreasing. We put these dates in the Bill, because the provisions in the old Act of 1880 prevent the killing of birds during the breeding season. The sale of the eggs is prohibited all the year round, and that applies to foreign eggs as well as British eggs.

Lt.-Commander KENWORTHY

Will they be prohibited from importation.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS

There is no object in prohibiting their importation when they cannot be sold.

Mr. MAXTON

I do not want to detain the House, but I have, as the Home Secretary knows, been considerably interested in the protection of wild birds, and I fail to understand why the House should be asked at this late hour to pass this most unsatisfactory Bill. It does not provide anything like a really adequate protection of the lapwing. The right hon. Gentleman seems to be surprised at my suggestion, but I cannot see how one is going to decide, when a person has an egg in his pocket, whether it is for the purposes of sale or for ornithological study. I am thinking more particularly of the boys in my part of the country, who ramble in the country and pick up plovers' eggs without any intention of sale at all. If they are caught by a gamekeeper or policeman, they can very readily be rushed into court, and the onus will be on them to prove that they have not the eggs in their possession as a commercial proposition.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS

I will consider that point.

Mr. MAXTON

The other point in respect to a Wild Birds Bill is that I always think there is something contradictory to the spirit of a Bill which has a human basis when it provides an imprisonment penalty for anyone who breaks the law. There is something contradictory in the idea of shutting up a boy in prison because he has interfered with the lapwing's eggs. Here we have a period of imprisonment of one month specified. I am not complaining about the money penalty, but I do think that to place a penalty of imprisonment in a Bill like this is a contradiction of the spirit which actuates legislation of this description. I shall not oppose the Second Reading of the Bill, but I hope that in Committee it will be amended very seriously. I do say that the Government and the usual channels—because I am not saying that the Government alone are responsible—should realize that some of us are interested in Measures of this description, and that it is not fair that they should be brought on at this hour of the night when the Eleven o'clock Rule is suspended.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS

I can certainly assure the hon. Gentleman that I will consider in Committee any point that he desires to raise.

Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House for To-morrow.—[Sir W. Joynson-Hicks.]