§ 59. Mr. LANSBURYasked the Home Secretary the salary proposed to be paid to Lord Byng during his tenure of office as Chief Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police; whether any definite period has been agreed to as his tenure of office; and will his Lordship be entitled to a pension or other emolument on retirement from the position?
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSLord Byng, as Commissioner of Metropolitan Police, will be entitled to the salary of the post, as provided in the Estimates, namely, £3,000 per annum. No definite period has been fixed, but as the law stands a Commissioner of Police cannot retain office after he reaches the age of 70. As regards pension, I must refer the hon. Member to the provisions of the Police Pensions Act, 1921, under which Lord Byng can only obtain any pension if specially sanctioned by the Secretary of State with the concurrence of the Treasury.
§ Mr. LANSBURYCan the right hon. Gentleman say for what period Lord Byng will serve?
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSNo period. As I have explained, under the provisions of the law as it stands, Lord Byng must retire at 70. No period is fixed, but he can retire before that age if he thinks fit.
§ 62. Mr. LANSBURYasked the Home Secretary what special conditions prevail at the headquarters of the Metropolitan Police which in his judgment made it necessary for him to ask Lord Byng to accept the position of Chief Commissioner without any reference to his Lordship's age and without any agreement as to length of service and remuneration, and without regard to the 1382 fact that his Lordship is already five years older than the usual age at which commissioners are expected to retire?
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSWhen a post of the importance of that of Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis becomes vacant, it is usual and proper for the Minister responsible to survey the whole available field of choice with a view to finding the man who in his judgment is best suited by experience and personal qualities to undertake it. That is exactly what I have done in this instance, and in my judgment Lord Byng possesses qualifications which outweigh the disadvantages, such as they are, of advancing years. After all, he is younger than many gentlemen known to all of us who still apply themselves with unabated vigour to their self-appointed tasks. No special agreement as to length of service or remuneration was necessary in view of the facts which I have brought to the notice of the hon. Member in reply to his earlier question. The last part of the question does not arise for, as the hon. Member will see when he has the particulars for which he is asking with regard to previous occupants of the post, it cannot be said that there is any usual age at whch commissioners are expected to retire.
§ Mr. LANSBURYIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that only two days ago he told the House that there were some exceptional conditions which necessitated the appointment of such a gentleman, and may I ask him the question which I asked him then, as to why it is that there is no person in the service of the Metropolitan Police who can be promoted to this position, without bringing in a gentleman of this age? May I also say to the right hon. Gentleman—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—that persons who do voluntary work do not want sneers from him or anyone else. [Interruption.] When you have done as much as I have—[Interruption.] He is beneath contempt, that is what I say. [Interruption.]
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSThe hon. Gentleman and I have worked together for many years. I am not complaining——
§ Mr. LANSBURYWhy do you sneer at me?
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSReally, I did not sneer. The hon. Gentleman is far too sensitive.
§ Mr. LANSBURYYou talked about self-appointed tasks.
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSI am astonished at the hon. Gentleman's lack of a sense of humour. With regard to the serious question which he asked me, he is entitled to an answer. The position in the Metropolitan Police is that there are many high officers, all carrying out their duties satisfactorily, but it may well be, and it is my view, having been responsible for three and a half years and having worked with these officers, that neither of them was the right man to appoint to the control of a great force of 20,000 men, involving as it does the safety and happiness of an enormous city of some 8,000,000 people. I felt it essential that I should get a man of great qualifications, great ability, great character——
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYA reflection on the police.
§ Mr. MONTAGUEWhat is behind all this?
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS—and while I make no reflection of any kind on the officers of the force, who are carrying out their duties admirably, I felt, and still feel, that Lord Byng is better adapted for carrying out the duties than any one of these officers.
§ Mr. LANSBURYHas the right hon. Gentleman read the latest Report issued by Sir William Horwood in reference to the condition of the police force in the metropolitan area? [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SPEAKERHon. Members are trying to debate the question. It is really not a time for Debate.
§ 63. Mr. LANSBURYasked the Home Secretary how many of the last four gentlemen who held the post of Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis possessed previous police experience; what was their age at the time of appointment; at what age did they retire; what salary attached to the office and what pension was paid on retirement; the total number of years each of these gentlemen served; whether any of them at the time of appointment was 1384 in receipt of a pension from any other public Department; and the amount of such pension, if any?
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSAs the answer is in a tabular form, I will publish it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSIt is impossible to read it out, but I may give what the hon. Gentleman wants, which is the age of retirement of previous Commissioners. They are 52, 66, 68 and 58. There are many other figures including pensions, age, and so on.
§ Mr. HAYESIn view of the fact that on the occasion of every appointment to the Chief Commissionership, it has always been suggested that it was with a view to clearing up a mess, will the right hon. Gentleman say what was the nature of the stern call to duty that prompted the invitation to Lord Byng to accept the post, and the reflection that is conveyed by his statement without explanation on the state of affairs that existed in the Metropolitan Police.
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSI never, in any statement of mine, said that there was any question of clearing up a mess. I stated that I asked Lord Byng, who naturally might feel that with his record he need not be called upon to undertake any more public service, to take the important duty, because I could conceive that he had exactly those qualities which are required at the present time for the Commissionership of the Metropolitan Police.
§ Mr. HAYESWhat are the conditions which demand such special qualifications which are not possessed by experienced and trained police officers?
§ Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKSThe hon. Member, I understand, is asking for a Debate on this subject next week. He can put his points then, and I shall be prepared to meet them in Debate, but it really is impossible to do more than I have done at the present time in answering the questions that have been put to me. I shall be prepared to make a full statement in regard to all matters relating to the appointment of this gentleman, and the steps which I took when I knew that the vacancy would occur.
§ Mr. HORE-BELISHA rose——
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe whole House will see that this is certainly not a time to
| — | Mr. James Monro, C.B. | Col. Sir Edward R. C. Bradford, G.C.B., G.C.V.O., K.C.S.I. | Sir Edward R. Henry, G.C.V.O., K.C.B. | Gen Rt. Hon. Sir C. F. Nevil Macready, G.C.M.G., K.C.B. |
| Previous police experience. | Yes | No | Yes | No |
| Age on appointment | 50 | 53 | 52 | 56 |
| Age on retirement | 52 | 66 | 68 | 58 |
| Salary as Commissioner. | £1,500 (plus £600 allowances). | £1,500 (plus £600 allowances) raised during service to £2,500 (no allowances). | £2,000, raised after 5 years to £2,500. | £2,250 (in addition to £1,000 Army half pay). |
| Pension for service in Metropolitan Police. | Nil | £828 13s. 4d. | £850 | Nil |
| Length of service as Commissioner. | 19 months | 12¾ years | 15½ years | 19 months |
| Nature and amount of any pension from public funds drawn during service as Commissioner. | Indian Civil Service pension, £1,000. | Indian Army pension £1,124 17s. 5d. (after 1 year: previously £365 unemployed pay). | Indian Civil Service pension, £1,000. | Nil |